Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Autohummer]

We've just have had a long day of protest with arrests being made as I type this. Initially there was going to be a protest organised by the Civil Human Rights Front, considered the most moderate of all protest organisers. Almost all protests led by the Civil Human Rights Front were violence-free and are typically the largest, including the million+ protests. This is because their moderation attracts those who don't want to risk life and limb, but still want to add pressure to the government. I have taken part in three of their protests up to this date.

However, despite their good reputation, their application for a new rally on 31/08 was declined by the police. The Civil Human Rights Front cancelled all plans for today in order to avoid more violence, but people are angry at this, and made up all sorts of reasons to go to the protest site and walk down the route regardless. My guess is that the PRC is pressuring the SAR government not to have another million+ protest.

Since this was going to be illegal, people have stepped up preparations, and some who are unwilling to break the law or sustain injuries may have stayed at home today. A few days ago a friend told me they would be a volunteer first-aider and told me to start calling in legal help and their relatives if they did not report in by midnight, fortunately, they are safe as of this time.

Today also saw the police using water cannons loaded with blue stuff that is reportedly an irritant, though I thought it was some kind of dye to mark people for arrest. Also, a police officer was caught dressed as a protester, and, upon being cornered by angry protesters, fired twice with his sidearm (pistol, live lethal ammo) into the air. I have a feeling that this is not what professional officers should be doing, as a falling bullet can still be lethal.

I mean, did anyone really doubt she was a puppet figurehead? I'm interested to see if the protests have enough fire in them to continue, or if it will all just die with a whisper. The opposite of passion is apathy.

This was how the Umbrella Movement died down, and people now are determined not to repeat the mistakes made back then. Easily-targeted leaders are replaced with ad-hoc groupings. Static occupations replaced with mobile guerrilla-style disruptions. People are also thinking of long term resistance and conserving strength and avoiding being arrested/hurt. Ironically, what the government has been doing is sending more and more moderates and neutrals into joining protests, by being uncommunicative, obstinate and uncompromising.

I thought we have already gotten used to protests and riot police in action every day, but perhaps soon, we will have to get used to warning shots with lethal ammo too. For me, it feels as if the government, either PRC of HKSAR, has been escalating the entire affair, even though they claim to be trying to quell it. I am no farseer, but I think it is pretty clear long before we hit this point that neither side was going to back down. If we keep escalating, I fear we will have to expect having violent deaths in a few months' time. (All deaths up to the time of this post's writing is from suicides or medical complications)

[scourge728]

ptw

[Autohummer]

Addendum: While the police has escalated with the use of water cannon and stormed MTR stations to make arrests and baton people (which are implicitly considered by most people here to be neutral zones,) some angrier protesters also threw Molotovs yesterday. With both sides using lethal weapons (though at this stage without deliberately targeting other people) it is getting increasingly unsafe out there. I can't see a way out of this unless one side relents (preferably the PRC/SAR government,) but neither side is showing any signs or backing off and I feel it is inevitable that violent deaths will occur.

What I fear is that the situation here may end up becoming something akin to the Troubles in Northern Ireland, especially if Beijing decided to send in the PLA. The pro-democratic part of the population might fight a guerrilla war against the pro-Beijing population and the police and very likely the PLA, while everyone else contend with no Internet, checkpoints, snipers and IEDs.

[feelotraveller]

Yeah, violence is nasty for humans regardless of what side/part of a dispute they are on.  Avoiding it (as commonplace) is generally high up on the list of reasons for having a government in the first place.  Or at least a mark of some degree of culture...

Was personally amused to read that the (2?) watercannons that were deployed last weekend were still covered in graffiti from earlier protests.   

[Jimmy]

Violence is a rational escalation of the rhetoric between the protesters and the state, when peaceful protest is prohibited.

[Autohummer]

After three months, Carrie Lam finally announces that the extradition bill amendment will be withdrawn. However, she has refused to concede to the other 4 of the 5 demands from the protesters and the pan-democratic camp, namely:
#2 reverse the classification of the protest on 12 June as a riot,
#3 the release and acquittal of arrested protesters,
#4 the establishment of an independent committee to investigate police brutality, and
#5 that Carrie Lam must step down.

Carrie Lam also added that she would establish a "communicative platform" for her and senior officials to reach out to the population, in other words, put on a few shows with people on her camp or Beijing-aliened people and call it a day. She would also add two more people into the existing police watchdog, but staunchly refused to form an independent committee (according to leaked meeting transcripts, she promised the police that "not forming an independent committee" is the least she could do to protect the police.) Finally, she would take steps to improve prospects for local youth, which is something that has been said for years, but only said, never done, I doubt this time it would be any different.

I have no idea why the powers that be suddenly concedes after putting on a hardline attitude for so long. Had this decision been made three months earlier, this entire affair could have been adverted. Given that protests continued as usual after Carrie Lam's announcement, it is quite clear that this move satisfies practically nobody.

Right now police is considered the number one threat to any person walking on the streets. I myself had to minimise all unnecessary outings as not only isn't the MTR safe, but days ago the police have stopped a bus and searched everyone onboard for no reason, forced reporters to leave and allegedly mistreated the passengers being searched. On the plus side, I don't really have to care which colour I should wear anymore, as recent events have shown that you'd be beaten up and arrested by the police regardless as long as you look young and find yourself in the wrong place during a police operation. So far more than 1000 arrests have been made and I expect more to come.

People are saying that Carrie Lam plans to concede to give her grounds to introduce emergency powers. The idea is, now that she has conceded and made gestures to reconcile, if the protests continue, the government can justify passing emergency powers as the protesters would appear to be unwilling to answer the government's goodwill with goodwill, and the government then claim that force is the only way to end the conflict. Of course, given how dangerous the police is right now, I'd say we are already under a kind of curfew. Given what is going on, me and my family have begun checking options for fleeing Hong Kong, should the government decide to execute Order 66.

[smjjames]

Order 66? Is that a 1984 reference?

[wierd]

Seriously...

What do they expect Lam to do?  She's a puppet figurehead at best.  A kept politician, that exists at the whim and whimsy of Beijing.

China has a very clear policy it keeps in regards to popular movements like this.  The people in HK need to review the footage of Tienanmen Square.  Lam has precisely ZERO power to oppose Beijing. The best protection they have against being turned into red stains under tank tracks, is to keep Lam around.

The best weapons they have are political intrigue, subversive message spreading, and anonymity.  Getting rid of Lam gets rid of item 1, which is what allows them to do item 2, and grants them at least some token measure of item 3.

Lam put the proposed law forward, because Beijing demanded it, and she knows she is a kept politician, that exists at the whim and whimsy of Beijing.

I am by no means a Party Sympathizer.  I just dont want to see the people of HK go from "living like sardines" to being "On the receiving end of Beijing's "concentrated and decisive attention." The shit that's gone on in the Himalayas to a certain ethnic group there should be an eye opener. Beijing is totally capable, and has demonstrated profound willingness, to do unspeakable things. These people are either extremely naive, or very very brave.  I am not sure which.

But demanding the removal of Lam, instead of trying to co-opt her, makes me suspect the former, rather than the latter.

[Autohummer]

Seriously...

What do they expect Lam to do?  She's a puppet figurehead at best.  A kept politician, that exists at the whim and whimsy of Beijing.

China has a very clear policy it keeps in regards to popular movements like this.  The people in HK need to review the footage of Tienanmen Square.  Lam has precisely ZERO power to oppose Beijing. The best protection they have against being turned into red stains under tank tracks, is to keep Lam around.

The best weapons they have are political intrigue, subversive message spreading, and anonymity.  Getting rid of Lam gets rid of item 1, which is what allows them to do item 2, and grants them at least some token measure of item 3.

Lam put the proposed law forward, because Beijing demanded it, and she knows she is a kept politician, that exists at the whim and whimsy of Beijing.

I am by no means a Party Sympathizer.  I just dont want to see the people of HK go from "living like sardines" to being "On the receiving end of Beijing's "concentrated and decisive attention." The shit that's gone on in the Himalayas to a certain ethnic group there should be an eye opener. Beijing is totally capable, and has demonstrated profound willingness, to do unspeakable things. These people are either extremely naive, or very very brave.  I am not sure which.

But demanding the removal of Lam, instead of trying to co-opt her, makes me suspect the former, rather than the latter.

I have thought the same a month ago. But I think almost everyone here knows the real opponent is the PRC. I don't know who could feasibly replace Lam, nobody I know do. But it is clear someone has to take the fall and it was officially Lam who came up with the whole crisis, so making her go is a demand, not to mention that there isn't really a way to coopt her.

You may have heard of the phrase "if we burn you burn with us" from the Hunger Games, it has gotten quite popular here to express the current agenda of some of the more aggressive protesters, who actually want to push for an escalation to the point of lethal force. Their logic is, since Hong Kong is far too small and weak to do anything against the PRC (probably not even through subterfuge, as PRC's agents and surveillance are everywhere upstairs and have already extensively infiltrated here as well,) they absolutely need foreign intervention, preferable from the UK as it is partly responsible for Hong Kong's handover, (I don't think that would happen, but some do.) However, unless they force China to send in the tanks, and make sure that the rest of the world knows how nasty China is even in face of intense international scrutiny, Hong Kong would eventually be forgotten by the international community and China would be again free to do as it please. Also, if the situation in Hong Kong ends in blood, it is almost certain that any attempt by China to reunify Taiwan peacefully would be rejected. For this part of the protesters, "winning" is to throw as many wrenches into the PRC's plans as they could, no matter the cost. Why are they so suicidal? I suppose it has to do with living under extreme unfairness since birth and not seeing any faint hope for change. To them, things already can't get any worse. Even those who are more moderate tend to agree with them, as life has gotten worse since the handover, unless you happen to be amongst those bribed by PRC money to cooperate and even those are being increasingly crowded out and replaced by Chinese Chinese (pardon the wording). People do see Hong Kong as dying rapidly from the inside and this is now one final stand before the end.

The situation in the PRC itself is also more nuanced than it appears, at least, that is how the rumour goes. The PRC is not a monolithic power, but a tug-of-war between camps. Right now Xi's camp has power and intends to hold onto it forever, but the camp aligned with Jiang Zemin (The Chinese President from two terms back) is trying to remove Xi from power. One way they are alleged to do this is to make the situation in Hong Kong bad enough that Xi is forced to send in troops and thus take the fall for the bloodshed. This may weaken Xi's position enough to oust him.

[smjjames]

No wait, I just realized where order 66 is from, Star Wars.

[Autohummer]

No wait, I just realized where order 66 is from, Star Wars.

I know we are just civvies, not Jedis, but I take Order 66 as the moment the already Sith-controlled Republic finally tore off the mask of being a nice government and reveals the Empire beneath for all to see, yet nobody could do much of thing without being shot up. Just an analogy.

[Jimmy]

From my armchair, the view I see tends to show the protests as a symptom of a people that have known the taste of relative freedom and can see the path that their leaders intend to follow removing those freedoms.

Given another twenty years, the propaganda machine of the CCP will have had ample time to grind out the willingness of the common people to protest against their assigned lot.

I don't think we'll see any international action against China, even if the tanks start rolling down the streets of Hong Kong. At most there'll be talking heads spouting strongly worded rhetoric against the authoritarian response.

Everyone knows China is brutal against its own citizens if it finds them undesirable. So long as the rich still see a profit to be made in business with China, nobody plans to do anything about it.

[Trolldefender99]

Looks like China is committing genocide to their islam population with massive organ harvesting

https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/are-they-sick-are-they-dead-what-really-happened-to-chinas-missing-uighur-people/news-story/f31a4e17177689f6c5d720d01d07df29

Everyone is sure not saying anything about it. Guess all the trade with china and so many businesses and economies rely on them, that china can do whatever and even middle east nations don't say anything. Some people have tried to put it out there and there is an occasional article (mostly by news au who brings it up the most), but almost the entire western media is mostly silent about it. None of the candidates have even spoken out against china, and in fact think punishing china with a trade war is bad when we should be punishing them for what they are doing. The only thing trump has done kinda right (in comparison to the other cr*p he has puked out. Its an extremely low bar) So not really right at all, but at least doing something. but for the entirely wrong reasons and the wrong method because that harms america more than it does china. Plus he doesn't care about muslims either anyway. No one seems to care about muslims. A bunch of in-closet bigots. Its very disappointing not a single candidate cares about what china is doing and mostly want good relations with them despite their genocide. Even people talking about the environment almost always leave china out of it, when they are the one of the worst polluters in the world.

Guess china can do whatever it wants and no one stands up to them or cares they are committing genocide and destroying the environment.

This post was a bit of a rant, but it makes me so mad when not one single candidate for 2020 has brought up anything about china and goes as far to dare say we need good relations with them despite their genocide. No other country or person brings up china's environmental pollution, almost none of the western media says anything about the genocide at all. There are the occasional articles, but it should be massive news. Even if its in china, it effects all muslims. Its a direct attack on islam, yet almost no one seems to care or punish china for it at all.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, substitute the words "Uighur Muslims" with "German Jews" and you get a great comparison.

[Doomblade187]

Sadly, the world community doesn't like to actually do anything about genocide usually, hence why they succeed so often.