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[misko27]

Personally, I think a lot of that stemmed from how China was treated during the Opium Wars. Japan saw a nation which had been the shining core of Asia for 3000 years get curbstomped by the gaijin Westerners, and it scared the fuck out of them. It would be (to borrow CK2 for a second), like watching the Aztecs come in and conquer the entire Holy Roman Empire in less than a year.

China and Japan had both been in a long period of stagnant isolation from the West (a couple hundred years). Japan looked at what happened to China and realized it was because Western technology was significantly in advance of Asian technology. So in the late 1800's the Japanese government made a concerted effort to send its best and brightest young people to Europe and the US to learn everything they could, then return home. This way they could try to leapfrog into modern technology (especially industrial and military tech) without necessarily allowing Westerners to come in and run things.

They were pretty much the only Asian country to pull that off. Everyone else either got colonized or retreated even further into isolation. So because of that (and their special snowflake Nihonjin status), it fell to them to "liberate" Asia under their watchful aegis. Honestly it's less of a "Japanese burden" and more like the Monroe Doctrine that the United States would "protect" all of North and South America from European influence -- which meant we totally had the right to meddle in those countries ourselves, to keep them free.

Had resource conflicts not forced Japan and the US into war, I the Axis plan had been more or less "Europe for Germany, Africa for Italy, Asia for Japan and the Americas for the United States". (at least until things like oil and minerals and lebensraum would have pushed those hegemonic spheres into conflict).

I take a small moment to note the Monroe Doctrine was more specifically aimed at keeping Europe out (which it failed at because at the time US threats were laughable), but it was the Roosevelt Corollary that got the US involved in Latin American interventions.

To be honest, flaming water existed before fracking in regions with really high methane content. Fracking just made it worse.

Also, I was wondering, is there a concept similar to "white man's burden" in japanese? How is it called?

Best example I can think of is nihonjinron, but that's actually referring to the Japanese academic study of why Japan is a special snowflake.


@10ebbor10: Yes, but they are significantly attempting to decrease the share of coal in their overall energy profile. It's just that their energy demands are growing so fast that even opening new coal plants, it could still be decreasing as an overall percentage. I know there's a plan to build some huge-ass solar farms in Xinjiang.

I feel the need to note that a lot of China's pollution is production-based, rather then consumer-based. They have a strong tendency to export the fruits of that pollution to the west. It makes sense that the country with the highest population has the highest pollution, but they are disproportionately exporting it.

[Culise]

Personally, I think a lot of that stemmed from how China was treated during the Opium Wars. Japan saw a nation which had been the shining core of Asia for 3000 years get curbstomped by the gaijin Westerners, and it scared the fuck out of them. It would be (to borrow CK2 for a second), like watching the Aztecs come in and conquer the entire Holy Roman Empire in less than a year.

China and Japan had both been in a long period of stagnant isolation from the West (a couple hundred years). Japan looked at what happened to China and realized it was because Western technology was significantly in advance of Asian technology. So in the late 1800's the Japanese government made a concerted effort to send its best and brightest young people to Europe and the US to learn everything they could, then return home. This way they could try to leapfrog into modern technology (especially industrial and military tech) without necessarily allowing Westerners to come in and run things.

They were pretty much the only Asian country to pull that off. Everyone else either got colonized or retreated even further into isolation. So because of that (and their special snowflake Nihonjin status), it fell to them to "liberate" Asia under their watchful aegis. Honestly it's less of a "Japanese burden" and more like the Monroe Doctrine that the United States would "protect" all of North and South America from European influence -- which meant we totally had the right to meddle in those countries ourselves, to keep them free.

Had resource conflicts not forced Japan and the US into war, I the Axis plan had been more or less "Europe for Germany, Africa for Italy, Asia for Japan and the Americas for the United States". (at least until things like oil and minerals and lebensraum would have pushed those hegemonic spheres into conflict).

I take a small moment to note the Monroe Doctrine was more specifically aimed at keeping Europe out (which it failed at because at the time US threats were laughable), but it was the Roosevelt Corollary that got the US involved in Latin American interventions.

It didn't fail, per se.  The Monroe Doctrine was actually seized upon by the British during most of the 19th century, who were more than willing to help enforce it, in spite of the occasional "difference of opinions" with the United States, because it gave them exactly what they wanted - an excuse to keep Spain and Portugal out of their former colonies and those lucrative Latin American markets wide open for British industry.  The British foreign secretary of the time actually wanted a joint statement to the same effect, but with 1812 so fresh in American memories, that was obviously out of the question. 

But yes, the Monroe Doctrine itself didn't actually suggest American interventionism until Drago and Roosevelt tacked on a corollary, motivated by the blockade of Venezuela. 

[Ukrainian Ranger]

So. Hong Kong protests. Any predictions how will it end?

Spoiler: They need few Maydan veterans to teach them how to build proper barricades (click to show/hide)

[Duuvian]

I was thinking about bumping the Occupy thread with stuff about those protests.

I won't make any predictions as I don't know enough about the central government's views but a crackdown seems counter productive in some ways.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pacific/2014/09/taiwan-leader-rejects-china-unification-deal-201492810237314786.html

It also seems to me the non-violent unrest seems reasonable given the change in the government's original intent to allow universal suffrage.

I would hope these protests are not squashed as in the US. We set a terrible example for the world in how our own Occupy protests were dismantled through violence and arrests, even against those who remained peaceful while acting in the best interest of society by protesting against the inequality that is one of the woes of our economy.

I recently read this quote in a Science fiction book but it struck me as accurate. I have read a very small amount of recent Chinese economic history (1950-1980 or so) and I feel perhaps it could be applied to some decisions made by the government that later had to be changed.

"Rules, established with reason and justice, can easily outlive their usefulness as circumstance change, yet can remain in force through inertia. It is then not only right, but useful to break those rules as a way of advertising that they have become useless-- or even actually harmful.' - Isaac Asimov, Foundation and Earth.

It goes on to clarify that while this quote could be used by any murderer or thief to justify their action that would be taking it to unnecessary extremes.

In other words, perhaps the way to avoid seccesionism and dissent isn't to inflexibly suppress it; but to supplant it through accommodation (at least of non-violent people) and so lessen their feeling to need to break the rules.

[Sheb]

Yeah, but the Chinese leadership is also very afraid of setting a precedent by letting Hong Kong have free elections. I wonder how it'll turn out. It's possible than in 50 years, the handover of Hong Kong to China will be seen a a masterstroke leading to China's democratization.

[FearfulJesuit]

This is a good chance for me to chime in with an aside about China's elites. My dad teaches at a relatively elite Northeastern boarding school- has for years- and one thing that people in the business have noticed in the last twenty (but especially the last ten) years has been the vast influx of rich Chinese kids.

Partially this is because the US's boarding schools are second to none when it comes to a high school education, and the elites want their kids to learn English- but there's also a darker undercurrent: there's a growing sense among China's elite that the gravy train is going to stop some time soon, and they want their kids to have a way out. A similar motivation is driving the real estate shopping spree by Chinese tycoons in places like San Fran.

Sooner or later China's going to have baby's first recession, and it won't be pretty. Heck, any growth rate lower than 6% starts giving the high brass panic attacks...

[TamerVirus]

The whole thing will be quashed and quickly expunged from public record

"On June 4th 1989, nothing of note happened today"

[Ukrainian Ranger]

I think 2014 world is rather different to 1989 world

Spoiler: Damn, Hong Kong is copypasting Maydan (click to show/hide)

We should sue them for stealing our national way to have fun

[mainiac]

Well it will be interesting to see Russia invade Hong Kong.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Well it will be interesting to see Russia invade Hong Kong.

How dare you speak against the self-determination of Hong Kong, which has always seen itself as a historical element of Russia. It's not their fault the Kiev fascists forced them to stay in Ukraine for so long.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Lüshunkou is a more logical target for Russian invasion.

It is a pity that even 10% of Chinese army will wipe Russian armed forces (don't tell me to go to AGG )

[Sergarr]

They'd need to cross half the continent to do that, though, and Chinese army isn't well known for its foreign country invasion capabilities...

[mainiac]

They'd need to cross half the continent to do that, though, and Chinese army isn't well known for its foreign country invasion capabilities...

http://youtu.be/xECUrlnXCqk

[evilcherry]

Now gangs are beating HK citizens into pulp.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204715550426531&set=a.2244543270969.2132101.1169748683&type=1

To recap, as the CE promised "law and order" soon, a few Government-affiliated groups declared that if the police do not clear up the occupation they will. Then gangs soon appear over HK to beat people up, and despite more than a handful of injuries, blatant cases of sexual harassment of protesters, only TWO were caught.

Most of the time the police are just letting these thugs go without charge.

*update: 131 injured, 2 arrested. I guest these two grand masters must have learnt their trade in Dynasty Warriors...

Update 2: From Huffpost.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/10/03/hong-kong-protest-pictures_n_5926578.html

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Now gangs are beating HK citizens into pulp.

I hope HK have its own Right Sector