Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 20 21 [22] 23 24 ... 28

Author Topic: [insert gender-related title here!]: Beware the Evil Philosiphers version  (Read 28027 times)

palsch

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: [insert gender-related title here!]: ATTACK OF THE RADICALS version
« Reply #315 on: June 11, 2014, 07:09:34 am »

Ohh?

"You cannot be sexist against men because they are advantaged"

That wasn't a fake quote or said by some small nobody on like a small blog. It was by a professor of feminism said in a news article.

Have you tried reading the reasoning?
Quote
Short definition: Sexism is both discrimination based on gender and the attitudes, stereotypes, and the cultural elements that promote this discrimination. Given the historical and continued imbalance of power, where men as a class are privileged over women as a class (see male privilege), an important, but often overlooked, part of the term is that sexism is prejudice plus power. Thus feminists reject the notion that women can be sexist towards men because women lack the institutional power that men have.
Quote
Now, before I say anything else, the obligatory disclaimer: When feminists say that women can’t be sexist towards men, they aren’t saying that women being prejudiced against men is a good thing, or something that should be accepted. Prejudice is bad and should not be accepted.

Now that that’s out of the way, let’s look at why feminists make a distinction between sexism and gender-based prejudice when the dictionary does not. A running theme in a lot of feminist theory is that of institutional power: men as a class have it, women as a class don’t. Obviously the power dynamics do shift around depending on the culture and the time period (not to mention the individual, the other privileges that the person does/does not have, etc etc), but ultimately the scales remain tipped in favor of men in general (if you disagree with that statement, please go read the Why do we still need feminism? FAQ entry first before proceeding).

What this imbalance of power translates to on an individual level is a difference in the impact of a man being prejudiced towards a woman and a woman being prejudiced towards a man. While both parties are human, and therefore have the same capacity to be hurt by the prejudice, whether they like it or not, the men have a whole system of history, traditions, assumptions, and in some cases legal systems and “scientific” evidence giving their words a weight that the women don’t have access to.
The usual analogy is to racism. Racial discrimination is possible against any race, but it only becomes racism when backed by cultural power. As such talking about "anti-white" or "reverse racism" (in the west at least) is meaningless. You can have prejudice against white people, but it doesn't rise to the cultural level of racism without the power structures that work against people of colour.


My perception of the problem feminism has is that it's less feminism itself and more how people perceive it. For starters, a lot of people might hypothetically consider themselves feminists or 'egalitarians' or whatever, but actively oppose it's goals. They either view equality as already achieved or are simply personally invested in structures and systems that feminism opposes or wants to reform, and view these actions as giving women an unfair advantage or otherwise going too far. They are either oblivious to or deliberately work to justify remaining sexism to dismiss feminist criticisms. Anything inside their experience is obviously going too far by challenging the status quo they personally enjoy, and anything outside the experience is simply ignored or maybe occasionally lightly criticised from a safe distance and minimal understanding.

Then there are the genuine ideological splits in feminism which tend to be inflated and used to justify the dismissal of anyone you disagree with as 'radical' or a 'feminazi' without any understanding of those actual terms.

Most of the ideological splits happened in the second wave, which is why the opposing group are so often labelled radfems today. For sure you get most transphobia and anti-porn/sex ideology among those groups today. But other than a few of the anti-sex fringes, most people who attack feminists by dismissing them as radicals aren't dealing with any such topics. Maybe they are dealing with some of the ideological concepts that originated or were developed by past Radical feminists, particularly the concept of patriarchy, but it's extremely unlikely that someone who knew such background information would still use the term radical in this way.

But because people are aware, vaguely, that there are TERFs in the movement who other feminists criticise they see it as acceptable to dismiss feminists they disagree with as part of such an obviously wrong and 'extreme' group.

As for feminazi, even ignoring the Godwin element, it's useful to look at both the history of the term and how it has been used. For starters, it was created by Rush Limbaugh to describe, "women who are obsessed with perpetuating a modern-day holocaust: abortion. There are 1.5 million abortions a year, and some feminists almost seem to celebrate that figure. There are not many of them, but they deserve to be called feminazis." Absurdly this reasoning makes more sense than any other use of the term, if you buy into the concept of abortion as a holocaust. Should I assume that anyone who uses the term is anti-abortion?

Except that he largely dropped the term in the late 90's, then brought it back last decade to use against nearly any feminist or just women he disagrees with. In particular he has used it to describe NOW, and these days basically uses it as interchangeable with feminist any time he is attacking someone with vaguely feminist views. It just means 'feminist I want to make fun of', not anything more substantial. Which is how I generally see it used online. It's also generally used for the distant, hypothetical positions someone is trashing, not any individual person they might have to actual engage with, even if that person might hold very similar views.
Logged

Sheb

  • Bay Watcher
  • You Are An Avatar
    • View Profile
Re: [insert gender-related title here!]: ATTACK OF THE RADICALS version
« Reply #316 on: June 11, 2014, 07:13:03 am »

Reelya: now I'm surprised again. But I have a question: recent movements (like the #YesAllWomen, or similar stuff in the Francosphere) seems to reveal that women are afraid of men in many areas. Part of it seems to be explained by the fact that women gets more of what we may call 'casual aggression': unsollicited remarks in the streets, pinching of butts etc etc. (I'd love it if someone had good data on this).

But is it enough to explain the fear differentials? How come men aren't afraid of women coercing them to have sex?
Logged

Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

XXSockXX

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: [insert gender-related title here!]: ATTACK OF THE RADICALS version
« Reply #317 on: June 11, 2014, 07:19:26 am »

There's also this:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/hetpat/2013/09/04/the-startling-facts-on-female-sexual-aggression/
Which collates all the studies on female sexual aggression. It gives figures like 43% of college-age women in studies admit using coercion, intoxication or threats/violence to secure sex with men. That's not much different to male behavior in that respect, but we only ever hear the stat for men acting like this. So, we normally only hear the "bad behavior" from one side of the fence, without giving it a context. Saying "40% of men act like this, therefore they were indoctrinated by the patriarchy" doesn't hold up if you have another study showing 40% of women also acting in a similar fashion.
That 40% figure is for coercion, not for violence. Also depends how coercion is defined here. Regretting drunk sex is not the same as feeling physically/sexually threatened on a semi-regular basis.

Also this:
Reelya: now I'm surprised again. But I have a question: recent movements (like the #YesAllWomen, or similar stuff in the Francosphere) seems to reveal that women are afraid of men in many areas. Part of it seems to be explained by the fact that women gets more of what we may call 'casual aggression': unsollicited remarks in the streets, pinching of butts etc etc. (I'd love it if someone had good data on this).

But is it enough to explain the fear differentials? How come men aren't afraid of women coercing them to have sex?


The usual analogy is to racism. Racial discrimination is possible against any race, but it only becomes racism when backed by cultural power. As such talking about "anti-white" or "reverse racism" (in the west at least) is meaningless. You can have prejudice against white people, but it doesn't rise to the cultural level of racism without the power structures that work against people of colour.
That is a problematic idea, not necessarily in the context of feminism, but racism. There clearly is racism against white people in the west I think, not on a national level, but in areas where immigrants are in the majority.
Logged

Sheb

  • Bay Watcher
  • You Are An Avatar
    • View Profile
Re: [insert gender-related title here!]: ATTACK OF THE RADICALS version
« Reply #318 on: June 11, 2014, 07:21:50 am »

You could go around that problem by realizing that cultural power is not homogenous across a country. It's entirely possible to have areas (whether spacial areas of cultural areas) that are dominated by a group that is usually a minority.
Logged

Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

Sheb

  • Bay Watcher
  • You Are An Avatar
    • View Profile
Re: [insert gender-related title here!]: ATTACK OF THE RADICALS version
« Reply #319 on: June 11, 2014, 07:23:24 am »

That 40% figure is for coercion, not for violence. Also depends how coercion is defined here. Regretting drunk sex is not the same as feeling physically/sexually threatened on a semi-regular basis.

Well:

Quote
Anderson 1998 – Survey of 461 women (general population) 43% secured sexual acts by verbal coercion; 36.5% by getting a man intoxicated; threat of force – 27.8%, use of force – 20%;  By threatening a man with a weapon – 8.9%.

Logged

Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

XXSockXX

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: [insert gender-related title here!]: ATTACK OF THE RADICALS version
« Reply #320 on: June 11, 2014, 07:37:06 am »

You could go around that problem by realizing that cultural power is not homogenous across a country. It's entirely possible to have areas (whether spacial areas of cultural areas) that are dominated by a group that is usually a minority.
Yeah, that is actually what I mean. That's why it doesn't make sense to me to assume a single cultural power when the issue is more complex.

Quote
Anderson 1998 – Survey of 461 women (general population) 43% secured sexual acts by verbal coercion; 36.5% by getting a man intoxicated; threat of force – 27.8%, use of force – 20%;  By threatening a man with a weapon – 8.9%.
The other surveys have even lower percentages for actual threats or use of force.
In terms of perceived threat levels this is almost a non-issue and in terms of real threat-levels it does not compare well with what women experience.
Logged

Neonivek

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: [insert gender-related title here!]: ATTACK OF THE RADICALS version
« Reply #321 on: June 11, 2014, 07:39:17 am »

It really doesn't matter how it is dressed up palsch. It pretty much reads the same way if you give it any real thought.

Since it ONLY works if it assumes then men are one single cohesive unit of equal advantages and disadvantages who cannot be turned against itself AND that cannot be disadvantaged in any singular sphere.

It is changing the definition of sexism in order to suit the needs of the person writing it in order to differentiate the pain of the author from the pain of men in order to give their ideas unearned merit.

Ireland says hi by the way.

Quote
How come men aren't afraid of women coercing them to have sex?

Ohh it exists...

I will say that nothing is as clumsy and groan worthy as seduction. Everytime I see a guy having a noticeable male gaze, I just want to leave the room.

Quote
There clearly is racism against white people in the west I think, not on a national level, but in areas where immigrants are in the majority.

It has mostly died down in the west but it used to be more prominent. Outside certain White groups (Like Gypsies and The Irish) systematic racism against White people is pretty low.

How much it crops up legally I have no idea, though to my knowledge a person in trial for crimes against a non-white person isn't put at a particular disadvantage no matter what they are being accused of.

Though you are right. I am thinking on a national level and not all white people live in white rich neighbourhoods.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 07:42:53 am by Neonivek »
Logged

Sheb

  • Bay Watcher
  • You Are An Avatar
    • View Profile
Re: [insert gender-related title here!]: ATTACK OF THE RADICALS version
« Reply #322 on: June 11, 2014, 07:42:37 am »

I agree that in terms of perceived threat level it is a non-issue. But I'm not sure the real threat-level is so much lower than for women, at least in terms of the number of victims. The fact seems to be not that women are orders of magnitude more likely to be coerced into sex, but that the consequences of that are much worse. I'd like to quote that blog again here:

Quote
Let me bring in an anecdote. When I was at a student party once, around 25 years ago, a very drunk (and physically rather large) woman came on to me, very strongly indeed.  I tried to escape with a tactical toilet break. She followed me into the loo, forced me up against the basin, pushed her tongue into my mouth and her hand into my jeans. I had to summon up quite a lot of physical strength to escape. This may sound strange, but my understanding of the incident, then and now, was not that I had narrowly escaped being raped by her, but that she had narrowly escaped being raped by me. She was in no state to be making such a choice. When her hand grasped my cock it reacted and for a moment I considered letting her have her wish. I refrained, partly because I knew I would regret it afterwards, but more importantly because I knew it was highly likely that she would regret it, if not immediately, then certainly the next day. (I was also pretty sure she was going to throw up any minute, and if I didn’t fancy her much to begin with, that certainly wouldn’t have helped.)

It was all a bit icky at the time, but minutes later she’d wandered off and passed out on an armchair, I sighed with relief, shrugged off the suggestive leers from my mates, grabbed a beer, rolled a spliff and all but forgot about it within minutes.

Had the details of the incident been the same, but the genders been reversed – had I been the obnoxiously drunken man who forced my way into a bathroom with a woman, thrust my hand into her pants and pinned her against a wall, it would have (very probably) been a far, far more terrifying, traumatizing experience for the victim. Nobody would have questioned that it was an attempted rape.  Is this a double standard? Probably, but it is one born of thousands of years of cultural, sexual and gender conditioning, not to mention the political context, in which the ever present threat of rape has been used as a primary tool of male domination over women. We can question that, strive to move on from it, but we cannot simply wish it away.

Also, it is interesting to try to imagine what that guy's reaction would have been if, instead of being assaulted by a woman, he had been assaulted by a gay man. Somehow, I think he would have been much more traumatized. Why? Why does rape by men seems to be worse (in terms of psychological effects, I don't want to address the moral question yet) than rape by women?
Logged

Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

Frumple

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Prettiest Kyuuki
    • View Profile
Re: [insert gender-related title here!]: ATTACK OF THE RADICALS version
« Reply #323 on: June 11, 2014, 07:44:01 am »

But is it enough to explain the fear differentials? How come men aren't afraid of women coercing them to have sex?
I'm... kinda' too sleep addled to answer this comprehensively, but as a general heads up, cultural gender norms (at least that I'm familiar with) in regards to expression of fear, especially in any way approaching publicly, are kinda' massively different for men, compared to women. There's also tremendous differences of opinion in regards to promiscuity, admission of rape and/or abuse, acceptance of sexual advances, view of other gender as threat... the list kinda' goes on.

Between it all, you end up with a cultural situation putting a tremendous amount of weight against the concept of a man actually being afraid of a woman in regards to sexual matters. There's either pressure against admitting fear, conditioning to not accept that fear is what is being felt, or strong cultural bias to either not see it as coercion or not see the coercion as undesirable*. Among everything else I'm probably forgetting. The general atmosphere regarding such things is so different between genders (again, at least in the cultural spheres I've had much interaction with) they're basically incomparable. Incredibly different perspectives.

*E: I'm pretty sure I've explicitly heard, in person, one male telling another, "You got laid and you're complaining about it? What the hell is wrong with you?"
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 07:50:25 am by Frumple »
Logged
Ask not!
What your country can hump for you.
Ask!
What you can hump for your country.

Reelya

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: [insert gender-related title here!]: ATTACK OF THE RADICALS version
« Reply #324 on: June 11, 2014, 07:44:09 am »

But is it enough to explain the fear differentials? How come men aren't afraid of women coercing them to have sex?

Expectations, for a start. The behavior is fairly universal according to studies, but people don't expect it, because our culture educates us that it is not what happens. You don't fear what you don't expect to happen. Women are always being explicitly warned by one source or another, men have no such meta-discussion going on.

Plus men who have this happen may not tell their friends about it, they may feel squicky about it but they're not sharing this with their friends because that's just not what you do. Hard to say how men feel who've had that happen to them because there's little discourse on the topic, and men are widely expected to just shrug it off and laugh. Not hearing about it reinforces this status-quo. Nobody wants to be "that guy" who was the first to talk about this problem.

Also. a lot of differences could be explained by size/strength differentials. A stronger person is just more scary in general. If i walked down the wrong street and all these muscle dudes were eyeballing me, hell I'd be pretty afraid, too.

The domestic violence example: prevalence and motives look the same on paper, but the men who hit their wives do more damage than the wives who hit their husbands. That's in the Murray Strauss article, and it's the one place that symmetry breaks down. But it can be explained either partly or wholly by strength differences rather than some other hypothetical effect. The women who are hit have greater fear as a result, but the fear is totally rational and in line with the risks. So it's not necessarily gender-driven, but a situational fear.

Dating preferences could exacerbate already existing strength differences - i.e. women generally prefer taller men. And being significantly taller clearly makes them stronger than their spouse, on top of the testosterone differences which give more muscles for a man who's only the same height as a woman. If I had a preference for girls 1 foot taller than me, I'm pretty sure they could demolish me in a fight. And many women are doing just that, out of preference, but they're on the losing end with hormones for muscle development, to boot.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 07:47:54 am by Reelya »
Logged

Neonivek

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: [insert gender-related title here!]: ATTACK OF THE RADICALS version
« Reply #325 on: June 11, 2014, 07:50:43 am »

Quote
in which the ever present threat of rape has been used as a primary tool of male domination over women.

I actually question this from a historical sense.

Is this what people actually believe?
Logged

Sheb

  • Bay Watcher
  • You Are An Avatar
    • View Profile
Re: [insert gender-related title here!]: ATTACK OF THE RADICALS version
« Reply #326 on: June 11, 2014, 07:51:18 am »

But the end results also seems to be that sexual assault is less traumatic for a male victim that a female victim. I'm probably going to be trashed now, but in that context, wouldn't it make sense to also focus energy on trying to shift social norms that cause this extra suffering for female victim? In a way, it is already the case, with the fight against victim blaming and slut shaming. But we could imagine that giving girls the same kind of education boys get rather than the "rape talk" of "be afraid, you're a potential victim at all time" would help make sexual assault less damaging.

Also, how come sexual assault by women on man seems to be less psychologically damaging that men on men? (I actually don't have source on this, just anecdotes. Any data that disprove the premise would be welcome too.)
Logged

Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

XXSockXX

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: [insert gender-related title here!]: ATTACK OF THE RADICALS version
« Reply #327 on: June 11, 2014, 07:52:48 am »

Also, it is interesting to try to imagine what that guy's reaction would have been if, instead of being assaulted by a woman, he had been assaulted by a gay man. Somehow, I think he would have been much more traumatized. Why? Why does rape by men seems to be worse (in terms of psychological effects, I don't want to address the moral question yet) than rape by women?
That's an easy one. Male on male rape is one of the most emasculating things imaginable, heck, even regular male homosexuality itself is often seen as emasculating. Female sexual aggression is flattering, even if it is unwanted you can still spin it into something else (something rather empowering than emasculating).

I have never heard of a guy being afraid of being sexually assaulted by a women, it's a bit annoying at worst. What men are more worried about is the other thing the article mentions, a women changing her mind and withdrawing consent after the fact, resulting in rape charges.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 07:55:22 am by XXSockXX »
Logged

Reelya

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: [insert gender-related title here!]: ATTACK OF THE RADICALS version
« Reply #328 on: June 11, 2014, 07:55:09 am »

Quote
in which the ever present threat of rape has been used as a primary tool of male domination over women.

I actually question this from a historical sense.

Is this what people actually believe?
It stems from the adoption of the marxist perspective in feminism. Where you view the two groups as classes, then you look for "tools of class oppression". At first it was that marriage was the tool of class oppression of women. but this has a few issues itself: notably that men don't seem to upset about the marriage system falling apart, no more than women at the very least. Normally, you'd expect the in-power class to fight tooth and nail to keep something that supposedly gives them all this power.

Here's another view: marriage oppressed everyone, in the service of the State.

I have a few issues with stretching Marx in this way though, I think it works for traditional classes, ethnicity or race, but I think e.g. age / gender follow a different type of structure.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 07:57:42 am by Reelya »
Logged

palsch

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: [insert gender-related title here!]: ATTACK OF THE RADICALS version
« Reply #329 on: June 11, 2014, 07:55:59 am »

The numbers from those studies are all over the place. The Anderson studies (which I can't find online, though I can find other references to them) seem to be the high water mark. This meta-analysis says that those surveys, "asked about attempted sexual IPV and, therefore, may be an overestimate compared to the other studies, which did not include attempted behaviors in their measures". That study might be a better starting point.

That paper I linked has some really good numbers and discussion. Particularly worth noting they do get some extremely high numbers among high-risk populations (notably those in alcohol treatment).
Since it ONLY works if it assumes then men are one single cohesive unit of equal advantages and disadvantages who cannot be turned against itself AND that cannot be disadvantaged in any singular sphere.
No no no.

It assumes that all men have male privilege. Which is to say that they enjoy the advantages of that one element over women. The overall influence of that one axis of privilege are referred to as sexism.

It assumes nothing beyond that. You have to read a hell of a lot more into it than is there to assume anything like what you have written. Not least of all that 'sexism' is a label for all discrimination (contrary to what is written in the piece) and that the writer has never been to this Earth place.

If it makes it easier for you, replace 'sexism' with 'systematic sexism' or 'cultural sexism' in any feminist work. And the same for racism in... well, that's in nearly any context you care to refer to. Racism is almost universally used for the systematic version when talking about racism against minorities. It's only when talking about 'racism' against white people that the systematic part goes out the window.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 08:15:12 am by palsch »
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 20 21 [22] 23 24 ... 28