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Yes, please give us Vikings and Ninjas and Knights.

Yes, but only if it doesnt take too much work.

Maybe better to only make one civ, as close to vanilla DF humans as possible.

Maybe better to only make one civ, as close to MDF humans as possible.

No, I dont like it because it doesnt fit a procedually generated fantasy world.

No, I dont like it, because... (please post the reasons)

[Meph]

Semimegabest Queen?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Yes.

Why not?

[someone12345]

I though only demons could take over civs.

[Meph]

In vanilla DF yes. In Masterwork any megabeast/semimegabeast can do that. For any civ. I remember a gnome civ with a giant king, and a dragon who ruled the warlocks.

[Gokajern]

I like the idea of variety in general and yet there's one thing bothering me.
So if humans get different "cultures", what about other races? Of course dwarves have mountain and hill dwarves, but it would still feel lacking in comparison. Then there's the rest of the races, orcs, gnomes, kobolds, etc. All live in different locations/conditions but still have the same culture? I think it makes sense with warlocks and succubi, even the hermit. For everybody else though, it feels out of place.
I guess you could say I support the idea of various cultures in general for every race. Otherwise having vanilla humans or maybe a couple of cultures based location/conditions (like the dwarves) would make it more cohesive.

[KittyRead]

How do I mine with humans? I tried channeling holes but that doesn't seem very effective and I can only go down about 6 Z-levels before channeling further would trap a miner. I would prefer to sell gems and make coins with gold instead of selling feather logs but I'm worried about my miners getting cave adaption since there doesn't really seem to be a way to check the time except when the season changes.

[Meph]

Open stripmine or ventilation shafts. It's enough if you have some 1-tile shafts that break to the surface, every time a miner steps in that "outside/light" tile, the timer is reset.

[RodriguesSting]

I like the idea of variety in general and yet there's one thing bothering me.
So if humans get different "cultures", what about other races?

It is a common fantasy and fiction trope that humans are the only ones in the setting to have significant cultural differences.

Edit: I personally believe it happens to make humans look special, in that "regardless of our differences, we can still work together against the common enemy" or something like that. Acceptance, resilience and creativity are usual human traits on fiction, after all, as (comparatively) huge genetical and societal variety. I personally approve the idea, though I don't think it should be a priority.

But if it can be implemented, would be amazing.

Edit 2:

How do I mine with humans? I tried channeling holes but that doesn't seem very effective and I can only go down about 6 Z-levels before channeling further would trap a miner. I would prefer to sell gems and make coins with gold instead of selling feather logs but I'm worried about my miners getting cave adaption since there doesn't really seem to be a way to check the time except when the season changes.

Build down and up/down stairs on the border of the quarry, and go mining and channeling your way down. Don't make it too big, though, as you don't want to risk having your miners stuck there for too long.

[Gokajern]

It is a common fantasy and fiction trope that humans are the only ones in the setting to have significant cultural differences.

Edit: I personally believe it happens to make humans look special, in that "regardless of our differences, we can still work together against the common enemy" or something like that. Acceptance, resilience and creativity are usual human traits on fiction, after all, as (comparatively) huge genetical and societal variety. I personally approve the idea, though I don't think it should be a priority.

But if it can be implemented, would be amazing.

Creativity huh? Good point, still that trope would make sense if DF revolved around humans. Maybe we could give humans more cultures  or variation than the rest of the races to account for these traits? Obviously without taking it too far. I also agree that it shouldn't be a priority though and of course without forgetting that it's all about the dwarves.

[LMeire]

It is a common fantasy and fiction trope that humans are the only ones in the setting to have significant cultural differences.

Edit: I personally believe it happens to make humans look special, in that "regardless of our differences, we can still work together against the common enemy" or something like that. Acceptance, resilience and creativity are usual human traits on fiction, after all, as (comparatively) huge genetical and societal variety. I personally approve the idea, though I don't think it should be a priority.

But if it can be implemented, would be amazing.

Creativity huh? Good point, still that trope would make sense if DF revolved around humans. Maybe we could give humans more cultures  or variation than the rest of the races to account for these traits? Obviously without taking it too far. I also agree that it shouldn't be a priority though and of course without forgetting that it's all about the dwarves.

Not just creativity, it's also a probable consequence of how (vanilla) DF's cultures are displayed. Dwarves are isolationist and tradition-centric so they're unlikely to adapt or progress beyond the feudal hierarchy they start with. Elves are intolerant of anyone or thing that fails to align with their religion, and are likely to actively eliminate any hints of deviancy from their borders. Goblins are surprisingly tolerant, but their inherent "evil nature" would likely mean that even minor disputes would be a fair reason to commit murder which drives down the possibility of dissent; being evil would also make willing immigration from non-evil empires unlikely. Finally, humans are both very tolerant and very wide-spread, that encourages both immigration and diversity as human civs have to employ a large number of strategies to work different environments.

[RodriguesSting]

That seems like a great lorewise argument for this mechanic. Well... as much of a official lore Dwarf Fortress can possibly have, but still.

Though it still looks like a terribly hard to implement mechanic, but I am an outsider, I might be completely wrong and it can be as simple as chewing bubblegum. However, I believe making them balanced and fun to play on their generic form should come first to creating many, though possibly unstable and unbalanced mini-races.

[smakemupagus]

The orcish embark scenarios in the manual are meant to give a number of ideas for different cultures, but it's quite purposely left in the hands of the player to decide what sub-set of the available buildings to use.

As to whether it's easy or hard to add this as a more filled out mechanic, it depends a lot on specifically on what you mean.  It would take, like, ten minutes to tweak a few superficial things like the default weapons, animals, or cultural values.  Even though that's simple it could have an interesting impact what you see from invaders and maybe a bit on the dynamic world and legends. 

It could take an arbitrarily long amount of time to make a whole new civilization from scratch with it's own reactions and buildings, especially if you overhaul the core mechanics (non-mercantile humans, etc.).

[RodriguesSting]

I believe that different weapons with different names (and, if possible, different values) would already be enough, as maybe different guilds.

Let's take, say, the vikings. For their quirks, they could have superior bows, better weaponsmiths, great tanning, but inferior metal armor. The japanese would be different, maybe capable of producing katanas, and so the "europeans", with crossbows, gothic plate and stuff.

I believe the trading faction concept should stay, as there is no reason for it to go away. Maybe the different human factions always keep a trading, maybe as a form of a multi-national quasi-company run by the guilds? That way, you wouldn't need to change neither the guilds or stalls, but would get the possibility of some easy to implement flexibility for the humans.

I also believe that we should set some bare minimum level of civilization for those alternative cultures. In other words, avoiding tribes or stone age people (maybe opening an exception for, say, Mayans, that were quite advanced, though metal smiting was discovered very late for them).


Another possibility too would be to make the player's fort, though financed by their especific civilization, run by the guild, strengthening the idea of "merchant outpost". Then, if this is possible, with each civilization archetype, the player would get access to one or two special buildings (say, Huscarl Longhouse and Raiding Port for vikings) with special interactions and equipment.

Edit: I was thinking... I am pretty sure you can adjust a civilization to make sure it will bring only certain items. While it could be only certain types of drinks and pets, I think we could use it to implement a quite interesting system in which every civilization archetype will have a token, say, "Nordic Token", the only kind your home merchants would bring you. You buy them from the caravans, and use it to build the cultural building (you will have a list, but the token would be necessary, in the way that, as a Nordic fort, you can't get a Niponic building).

At the same time, that could be used in interactions a la Warlock to create fort members, maybe cultural warriors made as castes? That could be interesting, but given how valuable the tokens would be, it would be necessary for that warrior to be truly an elite soldier, but let's leave the balancing for later.

[LMeire]

...
Let's take, say, the vikings. For their quirks, they could have superior bows, better weaponsmiths, great tanning, but inferior metal armor. The japanese would be different, maybe capable of producing katanas, ...

No comment on the idea itself, but you got your Japanese and Vikings backwards there buddy. The Norse/Celts were known and feared for their superb metalsmithing, and managed to make some pretty fancy stuff without sacrificing utility, but they looked down on archery and range fighting in general as being dishonorable. While the Japanese had to make do with low-quality iron gathered from black sand that was too brittle for much more than ceremonial uses like dueling; until the conquest of iron-rich Korea, warfare in Japan meant hundreds of archers and maybe a few dozen sword-wielding noblemen. The famous "Thousand-folding" technique used to make katanas is purely to shift impurities out from the center of the iron so the thing doesn't shatter the first time it gets blocked, good iron doesn't need to be folded.

[RodriguesSting]

Very aware of everything you're saying there buddy (except for the hundreds of archers. I thought spearmen were more prevalent). But if we go on specifics, the japanese bows are even inferior to the western ones, and can't hope to compare to recurve or composite bows they could find just at the other side of the sea. They could have very proficient archers (to the point of knowing those bows could only hope to pierce actual armor at spit range, and making the best of it by aiming at gaps), but terrible bows. At least if my Japanese warfare info is up to date.

Also, by no means, think the traditional katana is a superior weapon too, but we are working with fiction tropes here. If humans are going to be the creative, adaptive, varied race, and the Katana is already implemented in the mod, why not use it there as a superior sword? Hell, if they use my idea of elite soldiers by a token, a proficient swordsman/archer armed with that orc daikyu/katana combo would kick so much ass...

[Meph]

I'm more concerned about the tavern update and the changes to trade with/after it.