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Should humans get several civs, based on RL civs? (Asian/Western/Arabic/etc) Only one would be active by default, but players can chose to enable more or play as different ones.

Yes, please give us Vikings and Ninjas and Knights.
Yes, but only if it doesnt take too much work.
Maybe better to only make one civ, as close to vanilla DF humans as possible.
Maybe better to only make one civ, as close to MDF humans as possible.
No, I dont like it because it doesnt fit a procedually generated fantasy world.
No, I dont like it, because... (please post the reasons)

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Author Topic: ☼Humans☼ - Everything Human Mode  (Read 157736 times)

Gamerlord

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - NEW POLL!
« Reply #180 on: May 06, 2014, 05:02:09 am »

Is there a way to create a build material that can only be made once, and is one of a set of choices that unlock different sets? Sort of how Warlock mode only allows you to have one Overlord at one time. You'd build the 'entry level' building, run the reaction that unlocks the 'civilisation' you want and unlock another building that makes the materials for the rest of that 'build tree'. Sound good?

Meph

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - NEW POLL!
« Reply #181 on: May 06, 2014, 08:12:47 am »

Only with creatures. Yes, in theory I could hack something together, but it wouldnt affect weapons and armor, language, biomes they live in , nobles or graphics. So... no. It wouldnt work.
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LMeire

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - NEW POLL!
« Reply #182 on: May 19, 2014, 12:06:24 pm »

Building Idea: Candy Shop. Takes mints, spices, and other such tasty plants, purifies them into "extract of ___"- which make for moderately valuable tradegoods. Next, takes sugar or honey as a base material, mixes the base with an extract, and makes a stack of highly valued "___ candy".

Additional, culturally-linked reactions could include things like sherbet (IRL an invention by the Chinese), marshmallows (Egypt), chocolate (Aztec), calisson (medieval Italy), and pastila (Russia).

Another building: Gourmet Kitchen. Works like a vanilla kitchen, but instead of stacking ingredients into prepared meals, it just makes them into courses- bigger ingredients. Then the courses can be stacked at a kitchen to create meals with as many as 16 different types of food with a little stockpile management. Should be late-game to avoid OPness, maybe by requiring a certain amount of gold coins to construct?
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Meph

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - NEW POLL!
« Reply #183 on: May 19, 2014, 02:26:53 pm »

What is sherbet, calisson and pastila? ^^

Real meals, as in "prepared meals" I cant do, they are hardcoded. All these fancy candy, bread and other food stuff will either be categorized as meat or cheese. Same issue, I cant invent new item types. -.-
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LMeire

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - NEW POLL!
« Reply #184 on: May 19, 2014, 05:30:31 pm »

Sherbet's a sort of "ice cream" made from frozen fruit juice, those that could afford to would often add milk and honey. (They may not have called it "sherbet" though, that's just the name of the stuff sold in the States.) Pastila is a sort of pudding/cake/thing made from fruits and egg whites. Calisson can be thought of as a sort of cookie, and is made from candied citrus fruits, ground nuts, and fondant icing.

Shame about the meals, but advanced foodstuffs would still make a decent humany tradegood, IMO.

While I'm thinking about it I've got another one:

Feast Hall: A large, town-center type building with functions similar to the dwarven Tavern. But instead of requiring an instrument, all reactions require various meats, cheeses, and drinks. Simple reactions like would just take a raw meat and a barrel of drinks, and reactions would get more powerful and longer lasting as culinary mastery went on. Things like "Celebrate the Winter Solstice" would take drinks, candies, and smoked meat and could provide economic benefits like temporary [NO EAT] that would come in handy for a hard winter.
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Meph

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - NEW POLL!
« Reply #185 on: May 19, 2014, 07:35:00 pm »

Just keep stacks in mind. Value of the prepared meals with such ingredients might go into the millions... and the reactions would always use up stacks of this food.
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LMeire

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - NEW POLL!
« Reply #186 on: May 20, 2014, 10:38:24 am »

Ahh, that does sound like it's inching close to being OP...

Would it be possible to make it so that only humans saw advanced food as worth the price? Then a dwarf trader could look at a wheel of "Chef's Guild Approved Artisan Pepperjack Cheese" or whatever and decide that it's worth about the same as any of the generic cheeses from any "Grandmaster Cheesemaker" in any mediocre food-production-fort, while traders from the human capital are stumbling over themselves to be the ones that offer the delicacy to His Majesty. Same with orcs or kobolds, they'd be all like "Why would 'smoked-meat' be special? All meat is smoked if it dies in a fire!"

That would at least limit the ability of humans to cheaply acquire war-machines, magic, and warbeasts.
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Meph

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - NEW POLL!
« Reply #187 on: May 20, 2014, 11:41:22 am »

In short: No.

With custom trading in workshops yes, but not with caravans.
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IndigoFenix

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - NEW POLL!
« Reply #188 on: May 21, 2014, 02:53:36 am »

Just keep stacks in mind. Value of the prepared meals with such ingredients might go into the millions... and the reactions would always use up stacks of this food.

If you make them out of a custom material that is EDIBLE_RAW but not EDIBLE_COOKED, you can prevent them from being used in prepared meals.

Meph

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - NEW POLL!
« Reply #189 on: May 21, 2014, 06:36:46 am »

Interesting. Maybe I do have to change CHEESE into FINEFOODS or something, otherwise people go crazy with the stockpile menus.
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LMeire

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - NEW POLL!
« Reply #190 on: May 22, 2014, 04:02:21 pm »

Not sure if religion is still on the table anymore, but one thing that would work for multiple cultures and mono/poly theologies would be the practice of "Augury"- that is, the ritual sacrifice of an animal to predict important events. It fits with just about every organized faith from the Sumerians to the Aztecs, and could work by transforming cattle into a short lived "Ritual remains" (I remember someone saying that killing of animals to produce materials was hard-coded.) and borrowing the gnomes' "talking to birds" thingy for the prediction or other divine benefits like banishing the undead. Basically an agrarian version of Armok's dwarven war-cult.

Maybe somehow scale the chances of successful reactions by the size of the animal sacrificed? Both to keep players from spamming bunny-death to spare their cows and to simulate how pleased Armok/local spirits are by the offering of a potential war-beast like an elephant.
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Podesta

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - NEW POLL!
« Reply #191 on: May 27, 2014, 05:53:00 am »

On the magma workshops, I agree that taking it away would be very hard for most players, but we also have to agree that the huge stairway to hell wouldn't be exactly 'humanish(?)'. Maybe make it more viable with wood, outputting more charcoal for each wood used, still leading to deforestation, but still viable and not too much of a annoyance. For later game maybe instead of the magma workshop make those furnaces run on power, but maybe that's more related to the gnomes than to the humans. Perhaps the magma should be exclusive to the dwarfs, but giving the other races viable alternatives.

As for the race discussion, maybe an idea would be to include all of them on the same game, but all the specific workshops would be dependent on a first 'guild'/build that you would essentially choose which civilization you want to be part of. Special care would need to be taken so it doesn't become a lot of pages with a bunch of buildings (maybe a specific menu just for the specific workshops, divided in subgroups, making clear what which offer of different, and that the player have choices) and for once one is chosen he can't simply demolish it and choose a different one. I think this way you could still end up having a medieval armor guy with a japanese katana, but only through trade (and even that wouldn't be a necessity), without creating a total mess, mixing a bunch of different 'civs'.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 06:07:08 am by Podesta »
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Meph

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - NEW POLL!
« Reply #192 on: May 27, 2014, 06:11:48 am »

I cant take away the vanilla magma workshops, they are hardcoded.

I dont know if its possible to make things unique, like "build workshop A, makes workshop B,C and D impossible". If I could do that it would be much easier, but I am fairly certain that there is no way to do that.
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Meph

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - NEW POLL!
« Reply #193 on: May 27, 2014, 01:52:40 pm »

Just a backup

Quote
This threads purpose is to collect ideas for a playable human race. I will not start modding on them anytime soon, but I am interested what the people have to say. Elves would be the next best choice, but I would like to give a more dfhack-knowledgeable person a chance with this more magical race.

Till then I will improve Warlocks, integrate IndigoFenix Gnomes better, and brainstorm about the humans.


HUMANS

- Vanilla df human creature and civ as basis.
- Cant make steel.
- Pretty much normal DF nobles.
- Like castles and towns (difficult to build)
- Many Carpenters and Masons, for aboveground buildings.
- Custom kennels for special dog breeding and training.
- Custom stables for special horse breeding and training.
- Aboveground-only farm workshops, like dairy farm, agriculture monocultures and mills.
- Monocultures mean a workshop called "Turnip Farm" or "Vineyards".
- Winery makes red/white wine for nobles.
- Not alcohol dependant.
- Get one building per tradeable race, each other race can trade one blueprint.
----- Dwarf: Smith: Makes better metals, but wont reveal the secret of steel.
----- Elf: Fletcher: Makes better ammo and upgrades ranged weapons.
----- Drow: Poisoner: Small selection of poisoned goods.
----- Gnome: Tech-Building: Lets wait for IndigoFenix input.
----- Kobold: Trapper: Food and animal products.
----- Goblin: Slaver: Ransom hostages (more workers for you)
----- Orc: Clan Artisan: Handmade war-gear. Good weapons and armor.
----- Warlocks: Talismonger: Magical doodads and potions.
----- (No Automaton/Frost Giants, they are too hostile)

As you can see they would be heavily trade-based. Each caravan of these races can possibly sell you the buildmat for one of the mentioned buildings. But you have to take care not to call a goblin and dwarf caravan at the same time, because they might be at war. Maybe even two buildings per race. Dwarven Constructs, Elvish healers, Drow Alchemist, Gnome Engineer, Kobold Thief, Goblin Weapon/Trap Dude, Orc Mercenary, Warlock Necromancer.... many possibilities.

- Embassy that can call any diplomat, liaison and caravan, even orc/goblin/warlock.
- War Council that can declare war upon any race.
- Trade Storehouse to pack/unpack crates/special tradegoods.

- East Empire Trading Company: You can "ask for a trade request" and get a list of items you need. If you manage to get all the items on the list (maybe with a time limit) you can bring them to this workshop and "trade" them away for a big reward by the company.

- Merchant stalls. Like the ones in dwarf mode or the orcish caravanserai.
----- Weapons Merchant
----- Armor Merchant
----- Food Merchant
----- Creature Merchant
----- Jewel/Glass Merchant
----- Metal/Blacksmith Merchant
----- Wood/Carpentry Merchant
----- Tool Merchant (tools, toys, instruments, general items)
----- Clothing Merchant
----- Drink Merchant (Tavern?)

- A Bank to change or store money.
- Bribe invading armies into leaving.
- No butchering of sentients, that means no scalps or souls.
- Butchery, Brewery, Archeologist, Sawmill, general basic mod workshops.
- Custom workshop to cheaply make and arm siege engines.
- Halberds, swords, bows and crossbows, maces and hammers. Classical medieval weaponry.
- Pigs, Horses, Cats, Dogs, Chicken, etc. Normal RL domestic pets.
- Turnips, wheat, potatoes(?), tomatoes, grapes, etc. Normal RL plants.
- Muskets and Cannons (?)
- Breastplates, Greaves, Gauntlets, normal medieval armor and clothing stuff.

- Castes: A simple system:
----- Peasent: Menial labor caste.
----- Squire: Gets minor combat buff.
----- Knight: Gets major combat buff.
----- Merchant: Better for the merchant stalls etc.
----- Noble: Better for noble roles.
----- Clergy (???): (dont know about that one.

- Guildhalls: One large workshop that unlocks more uses for the category. The Carpenters Guildhall could unlock a better Carpentry and Sawmill. A Masons Guildhall could unlock the Stonecutters Workshop and a better Boulder-to-Block ratio. Each Guildhall would also have a training reaction for the fitting skills. Maybe 12 Guildhalls in total.

Guilds would cost gold to build and unlock better industries, this way your technological progress depends on your money. Since humans dont mine much, most of it will have to come from trading.

----- Masons
----- Carpenters
----- Smiths
----- Merchants
----- Healers
----- Tanner/Leatherworkers
----- Clothiers/Textile
----- Farmers
----- Fishers
----- Engineers
----- Jewelers/Glassmakers
----- Cooks/Brewers/Butchers

- Simple training workshops like a weightbench, a custom barracks/archery range.

- Taxation: Use paper and ink to make ledgers and have your peasents pay your 10% of all the made goods to you. (Input "goods", Output "taxed goods" + 10% bonus.) Means a workstep more for more money. Should be possible. Mostly to use up paper/ink and dimulate the RL 10% that farmers had to pay the landowners.

- Immigration Office: Request migrants or exile people (send unhappy humans off the map)

- Some form of religion. Maybe? Dfhack? I have no fresh idea for this yet.

- Arcane Library, Paladins, Witchhunters, Inquisition, all kinds of high-end shenanigans possible. No clear idea yet.

Overall they should be played mostly aboveground with little magical nonsense and be  a pure medieval humas town+castle that invites all kinds of traders and is very multicultural. They would rely more on diplomacy or walls+siege engines for defense, but can send knights into combat. (maybe I can make fake-mounts with rider on horseback as one creature)

 Just as a note:
12 Guildhalls, unlocking 1-2 fitting workshops each.
~10 basic mod workshops. (Pottery, Weightbench etc)
8 race-specific workshops. (Maybe 16)
10 (?) Merchant related workshops.
~6 human-specific workshops. (Knights, Embassy, etc)
~12 human-specific farm workshops, aboveground-only.
Thats a basic concept for ~80 workshops already. :)

What do you guys think? Good concept, or boring? More ideas to flesh this out a bit?
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Meph

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Re: ☼Humans☼ - Everything Human Mode
« Reply #194 on: May 27, 2014, 02:40:14 pm »

I will use this for steel making:

A custom building I modded in for myself that others might appreciate.
A bloomery is a sort of low-tech, low-profile, smaller-batch method of iron smelting, where you don't actually need a forge capable of reaching melting temperatures. Instead you just get the iron hot enough to be spongy, and you hammer it and knock out the brittle impurities while the metal stays together. You can also use oxygen and carbon and steady nerves to make steel using the technique, bits which you then weld together by folding them into bars that are useful.

Thus, this is a realistic method of producing steel without flux. (Iron there's no point since the normal smelter in game is more efficient, and I can't mod that to require flux)
In terms of actual reactions:
1) Build a bloomery which requires fire safe material and a firesafe anvil (for hammering blooms and welding)
2) Smelt 1 iron ore into 4 iron blooms using coal and a fuel.
3) Carburize individual blooms using a coal and a fuel. You have a 50% chance of getting flakes of steel each of 4 times per bloom (it's easy to screw up, which in reality would give you pig iron that you can't use a bloomery to smelt. So in game, 10% chance of a pig iron bar representing errors, which you can use normally if you trade for flux or find some later)
4) Weld 4 flakes into a steel bar using a fuel. (uses blacksmithing)

Each steel bar on average = 3.5 jobs, 6 trees (if using charcoal only), 0.5 ore     (And comes with 0.5 bars worth of pig iron, if you have the means to use it)
Steel bars using the normal flux process = 1.5 jobs, 2.5 trees, 0.25 ore

So this is about double labor and resource intensive, but in return you do not need flux. Only iron and trees, or iron and coal. And it is actually metallurgically realistic still.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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