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Poll

Should humans get several civs, based on RL civs? (Asian/Western/Arabic/etc) Only one would be active by default, but players can chose to enable more or play as different ones.

Yes, please give us Vikings and Ninjas and Knights.
Yes, but only if it doesnt take too much work.
Maybe better to only make one civ, as close to vanilla DF humans as possible.
Maybe better to only make one civ, as close to MDF humans as possible.
No, I dont like it because it doesnt fit a procedually generated fantasy world.
No, I dont like it, because... (please post the reasons)

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Author Topic: ☼Humans☼ - Everything Human Mode  (Read 157717 times)

Meph

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - Added poll
« Reply #120 on: April 15, 2014, 02:32:57 pm »

Yes, hugo, I did intend to give each of them their own sprites. :)
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Hugo_The_Dwarf

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - Added poll
« Reply #121 on: April 15, 2014, 03:06:06 pm »

Then I'll just leave this here to quicken your needs


Spoiler: human tissue templates (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Human BDP (click to show/hide)
Some of these might give you errors as I customly designed this for my own use, not MW but I'm sure you can iron out errors that pop up. Tried to generic-ize it the best I can.

EDIT:
If any tags are missing that you desire for your "template" add them in. Save it, then start copying and pasting this for your indiv Human types.
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Meph

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - Added poll
« Reply #122 on: April 15, 2014, 03:10:43 pm »

But why should I link all of them to this template, if I can copy the normal human, keep the name and just change the ID? Shorter raws?
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IndigoFenix

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - Added poll
« Reply #123 on: April 15, 2014, 03:17:01 pm »

Doesn't making multiple possible civs based on real world cultures defeat the purpose of a 'procedurally generated fantasy world'?

Seems to me that it would be more reasonable to make humans simply be a highly adaptable race.  Give them a lot of different options from many real-world cultures, but let the player mix them up as they so choose.  Alternatively, give them many functionally similar but differently named variants of clothing, armor and weapon types, but don't make any of them forced... let the game determine which mix you wind up with, so each time you play your civ has a different cultural 'flavor' (or mix of flavors).

Hugo_The_Dwarf

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - Added poll
« Reply #124 on: April 15, 2014, 03:21:58 pm »

But why should I link all of them to this template, if I can copy the normal human, keep the name and just change the ID? Shorter raws?

Linking to the material template "HUMAN" will reduce the number of "Human materials in stocks and such" and in game (FPS)
The creature human template uses all the templates to attach all the things that are similar
So all you need to do is copy that Human template change the _XXX to your custom ID "HUMAN_ROMAN" and rename the castes and such so you can get in your worldgen:
"The Roman hamlet of sadfghxsdgf" and things like "urist like Romans for their lust of booze and gluttony"

You might have to PM me what you really meant.
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Meph

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - Added poll
« Reply #125 on: April 15, 2014, 03:47:44 pm »

Oh yeah, that makes sense hugo. :) (less entries in lists)

About the procedual thing: There are people writing viking and japanese human mods as we speak, and the people here are already discussing if the vanilla df humans are western or rather greek/mediterrean.

The strong point of MDF has always been the GUI. I would make the rather generic western medieval humans the default, and players can add other rl civs if they like. That way you do have the option. I will put this to a vote at some point, and maybe make a thread in the modding section to see if anyone wants to do a specific type. Otherwise I just start with the western humans and wait to see the communities feedback.
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danmanthedog

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - Added poll
« Reply #126 on: April 15, 2014, 04:10:10 pm »

what token are clubs under and also is there a club weapon for dwarfs? Im trying to mod a Macuahuitl in
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
so I'm trying to think if I put it in mace or club if there is one.
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LMeire

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - Added poll
« Reply #127 on: April 15, 2014, 05:55:18 pm »

Military idea: Make military captains (and commanders) into moderately demanding nobles that refuse to work, simulating the old-world arrangement of peasantry supporting land-owners with labor and land-owners supporting the royal family with their martial prowess. It would make the squad-size decision based on a player's ability to provide luxuries for their nobles, rather than just hard-coded training quirks.
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danmanthedog

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - Added poll
« Reply #128 on: April 15, 2014, 07:52:40 pm »

Military idea: Make military captains (and commanders) into moderately demanding nobles that refuse to work, simulating the old-world arrangement of peasantry supporting land-owners with labor and land-owners supporting the royal family with their martial prowess. It would make the squad-size decision based on a player's ability to provide luxuries for their nobles, rather than just hard-coded training quirks.
That sounds good but that will be more on the Europe side of things, well western would be like you can be a noble if you are a priest or high military already.

He is a rough draft of the Sword/club for aztecs. It's first weapon I made so yeah, I need to now how to make it obsidian only weapon and what values should I put for it.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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LMeire

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - Added poll
« Reply #129 on: April 15, 2014, 09:31:50 pm »

Military idea: Make military captains (and commanders) into moderately demanding nobles that refuse to work, simulating the old-world arrangement of peasantry supporting land-owners with labor and land-owners supporting the royal family with their martial prowess. It would make the squad-size decision based on a player's ability to provide luxuries for their nobles, rather than just hard-coded training quirks.
That sounds good but that will be more on the Europe side of things, well western would be like you can be a noble if you are a priest or high military already.
...

I'm not sure what you mean by "more on the Europe side", the Japanese had samurai clans, the Aztecs had the 'Jaguar' and 'Eagle' warrior societies, lots of empires just left everything up to nepotism.
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lcy03406

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - Added poll
« Reply #130 on: April 15, 2014, 09:53:12 pm »

Doesn't making multiple possible civs based on real world cultures defeat the purpose of a 'procedurally generated fantasy world'?
Seconded.

Meph & Hugo, while you are digging into the deep technical details of multicultural human races, I request an option of "Simple human" in the GUI to disable it, please.
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Propman

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - Added poll
« Reply #131 on: April 15, 2014, 10:17:35 pm »

The same could be argued with the Drow of course (who themselves are technically just a culture of elves separate from the woodlanders), but until Toady actually allows procedurally generated cultures to be a thing, generic humans would be difficult to distinguish from the basic Middle-Eastern civ in their current state. That being said, I see no reason not to disclude a generic human civ without any culture specific buildings, but with all human-specific tools available for possible generation (set to uncommon), and a 50/50 chance of either being poly or monotheistic. Who knows, perhaps one might come across a bunch of Katana-wielding monotheistic pseudo-Africans with tricornes, living in the arctic.

Edit: Of course, the hardest bit would be designing a sprite sheet that is sufficiently generic. Or better yet, so detached from anything one would see in real life that one couldn't immediately pin them to a specific culture.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 10:22:25 pm by Propman »
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lcy03406

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - Added poll
« Reply #132 on: April 15, 2014, 10:55:28 pm »

The cons of multiple human races:

1. Dwarf players will get several caravans in summer. They kill FPS and don't bring many unique useful goods. Even worse, they may be at war. By carefully (not too much) design you can avoid human and elven caravans to meet. But 5 human races, what the hell?

2. You prefer human to be the choice of starter players. But They will confuse at so many start choices. And they will keep trying different humans before they go to dwarves/orcs/cobolds. It will be long enough to lose patience and put MDF away.

3. Before you have designed goblin and elf, maybe also drow and antmen, it's hard to design multiple human races. It will be either too different, that some humans are more like dwarves and some are more like elves thus no human feel, or too same, that the differences are only renaming some weapons, skills and castes, thus not different feelings.

4. It does not fit in the game's world. While a race can found many civs, it's hard to say humans have divided into many RACES, before worldgen. Their difference should not equal that of elf and drow. We don't have humans living in the tree or living underground, and reproductive isolated over many generations.
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Avacado

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - Added poll
« Reply #133 on: April 15, 2014, 11:18:10 pm »

You can set all races to good and get a bunch of caravans too.  I fail to see why this is a problem. Nothing says that the various human variations have to match perfectly when it comes to trade either.
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Propman

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Re: [HUMANS] - Post your ideas - Added poll
« Reply #134 on: April 15, 2014, 11:33:59 pm »


4. It does not fit in the game's world. While a race can found many civs, it's hard to say humans have divided into many RACES, before worldgen. Their difference should not equal that of elf and drow. We don't have humans living in the tree or living underground, and reproductive isolated over many generations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmy_peoples

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si-Te-Cah

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaodong

Humans can easily variate in ways as extreme as the elves can (evidently, someone tell Toady to allow civs to have size variations; dwarf-sized humans/human-sized dwarves would be a boon to trade with!) That being said, could one possibly limit caravan access to one human civ a year (the particular civ set through some trade interaction) using DF Hack trickery? Since six human caravans at once is rather large, though one would assume each caravan would bring culture-specific weapons and other items.

If everything were ideal, and we were at v 0.64 instead of 0.34, humans (and elves, and the GDA) likely wouldn't have to be split into separate races, but the current solution seems to be a reasonable stopgap for the time being.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 11:39:10 pm by Propman »
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