Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Author Topic: Currency Discussion  (Read 827 times)

FearfulJesuit

  • Bay Watcher
  • True neoliberalism has never been tried
    • View Profile
Currency Discussion
« on: April 05, 2014, 12:10:56 pm »

This was originally dreamed up as part of an idea for a sci-fi novel, but because I want to talk about the economics of it rather than its fictional setting, I'm putting it here instead of Creative Projects.

One of the major problems that we'll have to confront in the 21st century, as we've all heard ad nauseum, is income inequality: too few people are hoarding too much money. Generally speaking, many of the proposals for how to fix the problem are redistributionist: tax the rich more and spread the money around in a more equitable manner. Progressive tax brackets have the side effect of making pre-tax money worth less the farther up you go: if your lowest tax bracket is 20% and your highest is 60%, $10k is worth $8k to a poor person and half that to a rich one. (There are other factors at play here, of course, when you start asking how much that money is "worth", not least of which is that rich people and poor people use money in very different ways; you can't compare a thousand dollars of groceries to a thousand dollars of index funds. But the point here is that the real value of equal raises in income can come out as different values depending on your income level. This is really obvious, but attention needs to be brought to it so we can move on.)

There are two quirks with this system, one of which may not be a problem and one of which definitely is. The first, which is only possibly a problem, is that Uncle Sam is doing all the income fiddling after the fact; before that point $10k is $10k, and free to wander through the economy as its owners please. The second is that when your tax code is abnormally complicated (and it is in many countries) rich people who don't want the taxman to tax their money at the usual income bracket find ways to get around him: they can invest it and pay capital gains tax instead, they can buy a Senator and get a special tax break, they can do funny accounting tricks, they can stash it in the Caymans. It is easier to do this in some countries (the United States) than some others (Sweden?), but to my knowledge it's basically always a possibility to some extent. This also has the nasty side effect of punishing people who take lots of money as income (which they're liable to spend and stimulate the economy with) in favor of people who lock their fortunes away where it doesn't really do anybody any good. Thus it's possible that if your only goal is fixing income inequality, it's not necessarily the case that the best way to do that is just to change tax rates.

I was pondering this last night over dinner, and then an idea came to me: this aforementioned effect, where the same amount of money is worth less the richer you get, doesn't necessarily have to be something the IRS does. It could be an inherent property of the currency. In other words, instead of taxing you at 70% so that an extra $100k raise only puts $30k in your bank account, what if the currency operated so that someone who gets a raise from $100k to $200k only has the spending power of $130k under his old salary- not because he got a raise, but because $200k operates like that? This won't really punish people who get raises or inherit extra cash, because more money is always more money. It just isn't as much more the farther up you go, and there will be a practical limit on how rich people can get when the company needs to give them massive, massive raises just to raise their salary by a few million. (Most Americans, at least, would have a major problem with the idea that somebody can only get so rich. There's no reason, though, that the upper limit couldn't be pretty damn high- in the hundreds of millions or billions instead of the low millions- and, having an ascetic and thrifty streak myself, I've never understood why anybody would care beyond the first few million. Past that point all you can use that money for [let's be honest- nobody needs a bigger and bigger yacht] is buying and starting companies, and more than one person can do that.)

The first response people will have to this idea, I think, is that "money doesn't work like that". Well, it could. What is certainly true is that physical money doesn't work like this, at all- twice as many dollar bills must by necessity mean twice as much money. However, we're currently living in a world where the vast amount of transactions do not and never have involved any physical money at all- they're all on your credit card or go one further by just shuffling numbers around on a bank server somewhere. But because we insist that there must be a physical analogue to the economy, the entire system is weighed down by the constraints of physical matter. There's no reason a fully electronic currency could have properties that wouldn't work with a physical one, except that our brains expect things to operate like things. Lots of economics is counter-intuitive, after all.

There is a major, gaping problem with trying this today: if America (or the Eurozone, or Russia, or any country) tried to implement this, there would be massive, massive capital outflows on a scale never before seen as investors try to dump their dollars for currencies that work the way currencies usually work (in other words, where two and two make four instead of three.) This means that such a system is going to be impossible to implement for decades if not a couple centuries to come. It can only work when humanity has only one currency; you can buy lots of gold or other commodities to stash your wealth, but since you'll have to convert it back to currency to do anything useful with it, that defeats the purpose. Buying gold is a hedge against inflation, not progressive income tricks.

(If you're wondering, the plot of the sci-fi novel revolves around this currency scheme; the main villains will be either the equivalent of tax evaders, or reactionary terrorists trying to get inside the crypto-system that protects the currency in order to crash the Solar System's economy. I'm not sure which, yet.)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 12:19:59 pm by FearfulJesuit »
Logged


@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

Criptfeind

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Currency Discussion
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2014, 12:17:58 pm »

I'm sorry, but I wasn't able to catch what the actual idea here is. Something about money being worth less depending on how much the person having it has? But not how that would actually work.
Logged

FearfulJesuit

  • Bay Watcher
  • True neoliberalism has never been tried
    • View Profile
Re: Currency Discussion
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2014, 12:26:43 pm »

I'm sorry, but I wasn't able to catch what the actual idea here is. Something about money being worth less depending on how much the person having it has? But not how that would actually work.

Well, it's an entirely electronic currency; you can write a "currency" program that operates however the hell you want, in theory, although most theoretically constructible "currencies" won't work at all.

Perhaps thinking of them as functions will help. In physical currency, $x has $x spending value:



This is how we intuitively expect currencies to work.

This currency, however, works more like ln(x): more money is always more value, but it becomes less more. (The natural log function levels off much quicker than I think this currency would; but it's a good conceptual help).

Spoiler: big (click to show/hide)

(Note that the program's algorithms wouldn't necessarily be static...nobody really likes the idea of the Fed tampering with how much their fortune is worth, but they would be able to do that anyway if they decided to really mess with inflation, except that now you have a version of inflation that only affects a certain wealth level. The trick is to stop thinking of currency as the be-all and end-all of value and rather as the fuel the economy runs on- and to stop being tied down to the constraints that physical existence forces on currency.)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 12:32:19 pm by FearfulJesuit »
Logged


@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

Criptfeind

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Currency Discussion
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2014, 12:31:57 pm »

Okay. But so how would that actually. Work. Like if a dude has 100 bucks he needs to pay $1.10 for a apple that someone with 10 bucks can buy for $1?
Logged

10ebbor10

  • Bay Watcher
  • DON'T PANIC
    • View Profile
Re: Currency Discussion
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2014, 12:38:07 pm »

Okay. But so how would that actually. Work. Like if a dude has 100 bucks he needs to pay $1.10 for a apple that someone with 10 bucks can buy for $1?
This. I'm not entirely clear on how this is supposed to work. =

Idea for how it could work. Make your money out of plutonium. Not literally speaking, but figuratively. All money slowly evaporates, and some money evaporates faster than other. Has the added advantage that you don't need to tax anyone, as the government operates by simple adding new money into the system.
Logged

FearfulJesuit

  • Bay Watcher
  • True neoliberalism has never been tried
    • View Profile
Re: Currency Discussion
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2014, 12:56:42 pm »

Okay. But so how would that actually. Work. Like if a dude has 100 bucks he needs to pay $1.10 for a apple that someone with 10 bucks can buy for $1?

Kind of, yes. The idea is that the currency doesn't correlate with buying power at a one to one ratio.

(In fact, this whole thing wouldn't work for another reason, as I just discovered while thinking on it in the shower: let's suppose person A and B both have $100k in the bank. Person A goes out and buys gold, person B lets it sit. Now A has $100k worth of gold, and B has $100k. But now next year they get another $100k. Person A only has $100k in currency, and goes out and buys another $100k worth of gold. Person B adds it on, but now his $200k has the buying power of $190k. Person A can now sell his gold at $215k, which has the buying power of $200k. Thus keeping currency around is penalized, and keeping your fortune in hard commodities allows you to conjure money out of thin air, if you can find a buyer. I still want to keep the discussion open for other ideas, though...)
Logged


@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

Tomcost

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Currency Discussion
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2014, 01:00:48 pm »

Hey, diminishing returns actually make your money be worth proportionaly less the more you get, no need to do this fancy stuff, because it would end up discouraging investment. For people to invest, they have to accumulate money, and this system would discourage doing so.

The problem is not poeple getting ridiculously rich, the problem is lack of opportunities to have a standard quality of life.

alway

  • Bay Watcher
  • 🏳️‍⚧️
    • View Profile
Re: Currency Discussion
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2014, 01:26:27 pm »

This won't work. It's fundamentally flawed in that it requires you to at least have some way of making money. As automation and software gets better and better, workers in some industries wouldn't just be more costly than an automated solution, but more error prone and such to the point of actually costing the company money. Increasingly, people doing jobs that are automated isn't just an issue of costing more, it's that they provide negative utility to the company and to society. The only economy that can function as the automation trend continues and accelerates is one in which the majority of people can live good lives even without working; because a majority of people won't actually have any job or such they could possibly perform which is of utility to society.
Logged

FearfulJesuit

  • Bay Watcher
  • True neoliberalism has never been tried
    • View Profile
Re: Currency Discussion
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2014, 02:53:10 pm »

This won't work. It's fundamentally flawed in that it requires you to at least have some way of making money. As automation and software gets better and better, workers in some industries wouldn't just be more costly than an automated solution, but more error prone and such to the point of actually costing the company money. Increasingly, people doing jobs that are automated isn't just an issue of costing more, it's that they provide negative utility to the company and to society. The only economy that can function as the automation trend continues and accelerates is one in which the majority of people can live good lives even without working; because a majority of people won't actually have any job or such they could possibly perform which is of utility to society.

That's what basic income is for. Check out MME, too.
Logged


@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.