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Until I figure out how to un-close it, at least.

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So yeah.

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Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: May 01, 2014, 02:06:40 pm

[10ebbor10]

Yup, why would Kiev use a false flag operate to convince their own side to murder a good 30 people?

I mean, the point of these false flag operations is to make it seem like the enemy attacked you, giving you the moral higher ground. Not to make it seem like you're the bad guys.

This is why I can't trust anything, even photos, coming out the region anymore. So many groups are posing as one another, in attempt to lay blame on still others, in the hopes someone starts shooting and touches of a real conflict.

In a situation that is destabilizing that quickly, I guess I can't blame any Western powers for not wanting to step into the middle of it. At this point the only logical thing to do would be to arrest and/or shoot anyone not wearing a police uniform, since no one's motives can be trusted.

The police can't be trusted either. Especially when you give orders to arrest all the people.

[ivze]

Damn you! Damn you to hell, those green youngsters, who do not distinguish between killing people in real world and in a videogame. Who do not know, what it is to be burned alive, or, what worse, to have a loved one burned. Who have violence in their imagination, but do not have a border to isolate it from spilling into the outer world. Damn you, as a soldier, that's been through a real war, would not do what you did. As he knows the truth about killing people, but you do not. Damn you.

[GlyphGryph]

Damn you! Damn you to hell, those green youngsters, who do not distinguish between killing people in real world and in a videogame. Who do not know, what it is to be burned alive, or, what worse, to have a loved one burned. Who have violence in their imagination, but do not have a border to isolate it from spilling into the outer world. Damn you, as a soldier, that's been through a real war, would not do what you did. As he knows the truth about killing people, but you do not. Damn you.

What are you actually trying to say here. You definitely seem very... emotional about it, and it seems to be anti-killing, but beyond that (and I do feel there is more than that) I can't even begin to imagine, nor see how the image supports any point at all.

[Knit tie]

Damn you! Damn you to hell, those green youngsters, who do not distinguish between killing people in real world and in a videogame. Who do not know, what it is to be burned alive, or, what worse, to have a loved one burned. Who have violence in their imagination, but do not have a border to isolate it from spilling into the outer world. Damn you, as a soldier, that's been through a real war, would not do what you did. As he knows the truth about killing people, but you do not. Damn you.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hello, ivze. You came to join the flamewar as well?

Anyway, people don't kill people because they play too much videogames. They kill people because they hate them after a long history of rivalry culminating in a political clusterfuck after the Maidan.

Cool pic though.

[webber]

I have a question:

Wouldn't that be literally THE stupidest thing anyone interested in stabilizing the situation could do? What possible motive would Kiev have to stage this stuff?

Possible goals:
1) Liqudation of anti-maidan camp in Odessa
2) Distraction of public attention from the East
3) Another brick in "Russians invading our cities, shooting our people" propaghanda wall.

In all cases, it looks like things went out of control.

OR there is a theory that they are purposely choosing stupidest/bloodiest moves to provoke Russia into military operation, but I hope this is too crazy even for them. I hope.

Yup, why would Kiev use a false flag operate to convince their own side to murder a good 30 people?

I mean, the point of these false flag operations is to make it seem like the enemy attacked you, giving you the moral higher ground. Not to make it seem like you're the bad guys.

Ahem, but the succeeded. Looks like half of the country here already believes in "russian agents shooting peaceful march".

[Knit tie]

You now, this thread has a very low constructive discussion to political agenda bullshit ratio, especially compared to other political threads.

I think we should ask Toady to lock it and refrain from discussing this topic at all until a couple years have passed and the actual facts are more or less clear.

[Comrade P.]

Guys, from now on I declare my mind is completely darkened/enlighted. Whatever. I'm so full of prejudice right now I think I won't participate in this dispute until the whole thing ends. I'm not able to discuss anymore, not able to pick arguments to prove my words.

So, sorry. I think the history will decide for us all anyway.

EDIT: Which doesn't stops me from making witty yet stupid comments

[scrdest]

I have a question:

Wouldn't that be literally THE stupidest thing anyone interested in stabilizing the situation could do? What possible motive would Kiev have to stage this stuff?

Possible goals:
1) Liqudation of anti-maidan camp in Odessa
2) Distraction of public attention from the East
3) Another brick in "Russians invading our cities, shooting our people" propaghanda wall.

In all cases, it looks like things went out of control.

OR there is a theory that they are purposely choosing stupidest/bloodiest moves to provoke Russia into military operation, but I hope this is too crazy even for them. I hope.

Yup, why would Kiev use a false flag operate to convince their own side to murder a good 30 people?

I mean, the point of these false flag operations is to make it seem like the enemy attacked you, giving you the moral higher ground. Not to make it seem like you're the bad guys.

Ahem, but the succeeded. Looks like half of the country here already believes in "russian agents shooting peaceful march".

1) is not only CE for being CE's sake, it's not even the most efficient way to do it, since they are using actual army by now, so it's not like they couldn't just send some troops there
2) ...how would that work? Reverse psychology? 'NOTHING TO SEE HERE, ONLY OUR DAILY MURDERIN''
3) Seeing as there is proof of actual separatists armed with actual weapons actually shooting down an actual helicopter, and I feel like I forgot an actual somewhere, this again looks needlessly convoluted and CE for CE's sake.

[Guardian G.I.]

Late reply for some posts made when I was away:

EDIT: And it appears that some sparks have landed on the tinder of this thread.

Spoiler: In the grimdarkness of any political discussion involving Russia, there is only war. (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Hey, Guardian what do you think about that? (click to show/hide)

Here are Lukashenko's words were he basically says that all that armed separatists in Eastern Ukraine should be hanged.

Whoever made that pic has rather bad "pull the quote out of context" skills that are very easy to debunk. I didn't even need to search much.
Lukashenko made that statement on the 14th of April, and originally it was about Ukrainian oligarchic clans and not about any separatists.
Maidan propagandists really should work on their skills of uploading provocative pictures on social networks. Really bad, guys, really bad.

Another ukraine chopper Mi-24  shot down from heave machine gun in Sloviansk, which is not a surprise when they fly this low:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLVGTnB33_0

And when pilots have no real combat experience and chopper is a Russian crap. I hope after the war we'll find a way to get better helicopters

Ever since I was a kid I got information and thus remained convinced Hind was supposed to be near indestructible flying tank with his only weakness being rotor and even that only when attacked from above.

There goes my childhood dreams.

Eh, we don't know the type and the caliber of that "machine gun". If that Mi-24 was shot down from something like ZU-23, then it's plausible. If it was shot down from a (hand-held) light machine gun, then it sounds like something out of Tvardovskiy's poems about Vasily Tyorkin, like shooting down a fighter plane with a rifle.

EDIT: I see we are in a middle of another Ukrainian-Ukrainian "UR vs. webber" conflict in this thread. I have no clue where it began, so I'll abstain.
It does symbolize the division of Ukrainian society a little bit. I'll go listen to some Bosnian War military songs now while it unfolds.

[webber]

1) is not only CE for being CE's sake, it's not even the most efficient way to do it, since they are using actual army by now, so it's not like they couldn't just send some troops there
2) ...how would that work? Reverse psychology? 'NOTHING TO SEE HERE, ONLY OUR DAILY MURDERIN''
3) Seeing as there is proof of actual separatists armed with actual weapons actually shooting down an actual helicopter, and I feel like I forgot an actual somewhere, this again looks needlessly convoluted and CE for CE's sake.

1) Erm, you possibly got something wrong. I mean an actual tent camp on the street, you know, to show the protest and such.
2) As I said, things probably went out of control... or I underestimate our Junta.
3) ...And I`m yet to see actual Russian agents captured. Not random people SBU is showing us on a daily basis.

Addendum: BTW, if you have some time, try to apply "chaotic evil" logic to official version of February events. Like "dispelling the croud with snipers", "beating children on streets", "torturing protesters than letting them free alive"...

[GrizzlyAdamz]

You now, this thread has a very low constructive discussion to political agenda bullshit ratio, especially compared to other political threads.

I think we should ask Toady to lock it and refrain from discussing this topic at all until a couple years have passed and the actual facts are more or less clear.

Not that I advocate it, but being the OP I think you can lock it yourself.

[Comrade P.]

I see we are in a middle of another Ukrainian-Ukrainian "UR vs. webber" conflict in this thread. I have no clue where it began, so I'll abstain.

Post-USSR Politics Thread - In Flames since born 2014

[10ebbor10]

1) is not only CE for being CE's sake, it's not even the most efficient way to do it, since they are using actual army by now, so it's not like they couldn't just send some troops there
2) ...how would that work? Reverse psychology? 'NOTHING TO SEE HERE, ONLY OUR DAILY MURDERIN''
3) Seeing as there is proof of actual separatists armed with actual weapons actually shooting down an actual helicopter, and I feel like I forgot an actual somewhere, this again looks needlessly convoluted and CE for CE's sake.

1) Erm, you possibly got something wrong. I mean an actual tent camp on the street, you know, to show the protest and such.
2) As I said, things probably went out of control... or I underestimate our Junta.
3) ...And I`m yet to see actual Russian agents captured. Not random people SBU is showing us on a daily basis.

1) Still, why would they do that. They have gas and army and watercannons and all dem other methods to clear it up. Having the people do it only reinforces the idea that Eastern Ukraine is a lawless area out of control, waiting for a "Peace" mission stepping in.
2) Well, actually the fire might have caused less backlash than having the camp beat up by pro-Ukrainians. I mean, now it's a tragedy with no clear perpetrator (both sides were using molotovs)
3) I've yet to see actual evidence that the government is behind this. I mean, you only "evidence" is that the police chief talked to someone involved with Maidan.

[vagel7]

Webber, please explain to me how the new Ukrainian government is a junta?

From fascists to a junta, what's next?

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Webber, please explain to me how the new Ukrainian government is a junta?

From fascists to a junta, what's next?

I guess satanists led by Antichrist