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Until I figure out how to un-close it, at least.

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So yeah.

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Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: May 01, 2014, 02:06:40 pm

[Owlbread]

And that right here is fascist as fuck

There are a number of definitions of the word "fascist". One is "belonging to a right-wing, authoritarian ideology", but that obviously doesn't work in this context because Russia is ruled by a right-wing, authoritarian government (Putin is perhaps one of the most recognisable, mainstream, modern-day right-wing autocrats) and the East Ukrainian protestors are also right wing and authoritarian in their politics, just like the Ultras on the West Ukrainian side.

The second definition is "belonging to a type of radical, ultranationalist, authoritarian ideology with an emphasis on militarism, the importance of the state and also a focus on strong leadership". Again, Russia fits the bill perfectly there, as do the East Ukrainian and Crimean protestors. To quote wikipedia directly, "Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation, and it asserts that stronger nations have the right to expand their territory by displacing weaker nations." Again, Russia fits the bill perfectly. A number of people in this thread have expressed those exact views.

The only problem comes when we look at the focus on "ethnic" nationalism and the importance of purity of blood and such, but you could conceivably have a brand of Fascism that would accept those people as long as they identified with the correct ethnic group, like Jews deciding that they are indeed German and will speak German and so forth. That said, that particular point has nothing to do with the stuff Sergarr is calling Fascist, and funnily enough this entire conflict was founded on Russian efforts to protect "ethnic Russians".

Tell me, exactly who in this conflict is Fascist?

Even those that join Russia peacefully and are peaceful protestors? Would you kill the non-combatants that joined Russia that you are unable to arrest or refuse to be arrested (and are unarmed)?

Perhaps he should clarify what he meant by "acting illegally", which is really quite important.

I agree. I fear he may be slipping into a genocide mentality a little.

Just because he's started mentioning the word "kill"? I wouldn't go that far, but remember - if any Western government, such as that of the USA, was fighting a group of armed insurrectionists that you cannot arrest or deal with politically, it is likely that they would end up being killed unless it just leads to a standoff. I know the Bundy Ranch fiasco may come into play there but they're not that serious. If, on the other hand, you had guys actively shooting at police and throwing molotov cocktails I can imagine what would happen to them.

[da_nang]

Kill anyone that wants to join Russia?

Or you know, just show them where the border is. Hey, if they're that into Soviet Motherland while wearing their rose-tinted sunglasses, might as well. I hear Stalin enjoyed mass deportations.

Another thing I though interesting was that they demanded a referendum. Didn't the Ukrainian government offer one already?

And that's the thing I don't get. The parliament's practically the same. The same parliament these separatists voted in. The same parliament that approved of the Yatsenyuk government. The same government that immediately announced presidential re-elections. The same government whose PM vetoed the law abolishing the official language status of the Russian language. The same government that has shown it is willing to give more power to the regions. And yet the separatists still take to arms, shouting "fascism" wherever they go and are disregarding the fact that Svoboda constitutes only 7.8% of the parliament and 23% in the government.

[smjjames]

Even those that join Russia peacefully and are peaceful protestors?

Peaceful protests are legal. Attacking a pro-Ukrainian march with weapons is not. How can't you see a difference?

Just making sure, or something.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Then why all of them call for Russian aid and use Russian flag?

Do me a favor and recount, please, by name, every country that will be willing and able to offer them aid in such endeavors. In order of decreasing magnitude of said ability, preferably.

Russia has shown its willingness and ability to offer aid to seceding regions, whereas nearly the entirety of Europe, and large parts of Asia and the Americas, are adamantly against such notions. These people have no one else to turn to, what the heck do you expect them to do?

[Sheb]

Russia has shown its willingness and ability to offer aid to seceding regions, although only when it suits them and certainly not in Russia, where advocating separatism is illegal and SOP is to bomb your capital to rubble,whereas nearly the entirety of Europe, and large parts of Asia and the Americas, are adamantly against such notions. These people have no one else to turn to, what the heck do you expect them to do?

FTFY

[da_nang]

And let's not forget that Putin supports Assad who is starving and killing his own people.

[Owlbread]

Russia has shown its willingness and ability to offer aid to seceding regions, although only when it suits them and certainly not in Russia, where advocating separatism is illegal and SOP is to bomb your capital to rubble,whereas nearly the entirety of Europe, and large parts of Asia and the Americas, are adamantly against such notions. These people have no one else to turn to, what the heck do you expect them to do?

FTFY

All of my this.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Entering Russia is a one-way business.

The notion is that separatism is illegal in Russia. It's not separatism in Russia if it happens outside of Russia, quiaff?

[smjjames]

Russia has shown its willingness and ability to offer aid to seceding regions, although only when it suits them and certainly not in Russia, where advocating separatism is illegal and SOP is to bomb your capital to rubble,whereas nearly the entirety of Europe, and large parts of Asia and the Americas, are adamantly against such notions. These people have no one else to turn to, what the heck do you expect them to do?

FTFY

All of my this.

Also the obvious landgrab of Crimea RIGHT AFTER the Olympics FFS. I don't know whether it was planned (seemed somewhat spontaneous), but any gains from the Olympics were instantly lost. Had the landgrab not happened, Russia backed off, and the Crimea referendum been a legit one, then perhaps other countries would accept the secceeding regions more.

The way I see it is that America and Europe aren't against the seccession so much than against the violence that is happening, the landgrab and sabrerattling (and general all around bullying of Ukraine) Russia is doing, and the obviously rigged referendum.

[da_nang]

So it appears Italy, of all countries, is willing to send peacekeeping forces to Ukraine, according to Italian Minister of Defense.

[Sheb]

From what I know of Italian politics, this must mean that guy is afraid of a domestic scandal. :p

Also, yeah, it'd be easier for the world to accept the legitimacy of the separatists is Russia hadn't occupied a part of the country with its own forces acting like separatist 2 months ago.

[10ebbor10]

And let's not forget that Putin supports Assad who is starving and killing his own people.

And we're supporting extremists killing the other half of population. Or at least supporting the nations supporting the extremists.

There's no solution to the Syrian conflict, but it isn't relevant here.

[smjjames]

So it appears Italy, of all countries, are willing to send peacekeeping forces to Ukraine, according to Italian Minister of Defense.

If the US could put peacekeeping forces in Ukraine, we certainly would, it's just that as a world superpower, having boots on the ground in Ukraine would be even more threatening to Russia than Italy putting peacekeepers in there and has it's own implications.

We already put some paratroopers in Poland.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Browsing through the social networks... Looks like Odessa is arising again

[burningpet]

And let's not forget that Putin supports Assad who is starving and killing his own people.

And we're supporting extremists killing the other half of population. Or at least supporting the nations supporting the extremists.

There's no solution to the Syrian conflict, but it isn't relevant here.

Well, one could maintain that the only reason Assad managed to survive the initial mostly secular uprising is because russia blocked the west from doing anything meaningful against him, thus, enforcing the current situation.