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Until I figure out how to un-close it, at least.

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So yeah.

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Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: May 01, 2014, 02:06:40 pm

[GlyphGryph]

Once it will be perfectly clear that the West has absolutely no hostile intentions against Russia, Putin will become obsolete.

So you're saying that if we want to avoid a war, we should avoid doing what you suggested at all costs? I have my doubts that Putin and the establishment would be okay with being made "obsolete".

[Owlbread]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I haven't posted a reply to your previous posts to my emotional and rather non-rational outburst, but anyway.
As the little-known Soviet child song goes, "Собака бывает кусачей только от жизни собачей".
You can't prove the danger of any other country to anyone if it has no means or haven't made any moves hostile to you and the country you live in. I can say that China wants to overthrow the Belarusian government, even though China has never done anything like this to anyone in recent history, doesn't have the means to do it, and doesn't have an ideology which is used to justify such actions.
A lot of American actions towards Russia done over the past decades can be described as potentially hostile, like the eastward spread of NATO or the placement of anti-ballistic missile defence close to Russian borders, which can perfectly destroy Russian ICBMs during ascend, thus nullifying Russian nuclear deterrence forces. Zbigniew Brzezinski along with his numerous ramblings, including the ones about the need to control Eurasian (and Russian) national resources to maintain American world superiority has been very influential among people in the White House from the 1970s up until today. You can't say that people in charge with geopolitical views as "You must control the territory of this country to rule the world" are friendly to you. Brzezinski's ramblings were based on Halford J. Mackinder's Heartland Theory, which states that the Heartland or Pivot Area (suspiciously including a lot of Russian territories) must be put under control to establish global dominance. This theory had influenced American foreign policy, hence the encirclement of Russia with NATO military bases.

The perfect way to reduce Russia's distrust of the West would be this - stop doing potentially hostile acts. Dissolve NATO or move its bases away from Russian borders, move those ABM systems to Iranian borders if they are intended to stop Iranian missiles or scrap them altogether, dissolve the NED, stop financing and supporting pro-Western opposition in Russia and countries close to Russia (I can totally imagine Ran Paul or Alex Jones running to the Russian embassy to lament about that damn American government), put Brzezinski and other anti-Russian statesmen like McCain in a retirement home with no communication devices and writing tools, dismiss the Heartland theory, stop making films and movies with Russians being the bad guys (did you know that during the Cold War, Soviet film studios haven't made even a single film with plots about evil NATO invading the USSR and brave soldiers/partisans fighting them?), and so on, and so forth. And voila!
The necessity of tightening up screws in the society to protect it against someone becomes rather questionable if that someone doesn't appears to be intending to attack you in any way. Once it will be perfectly clear that the West has absolutely no hostile intentions against Russia, Putin will become obsolete.

By the way, did you know that India plans to destroy everyone with nuclear weapons? The Indian leadership is secretly following instructions written by Mahatma Gandhi, which can be summed up as "Nuke everyone and everything"... Why wouldn't you believe me?

I actually agree with nearly everything you've said. NATO should be dissolved and the defence system removed along with our nuclear arsenals and the USA should stop financing the opposition in other countries. Guys like Brzezinski and McCain should not be anywhere near office. I would like games companies and movie makers to stop making entertainment featuring Russians as the bogeymen but that's their choice, we can't force them not to.

That said, I would put caveats in this on Russia too. Russia should dissolve CSTO and get rid of all of its ICBMs and the entirety of its nuclear arsenal. It should also stop meddling in the affairs of countries on its borders, like Ukraine and Belarus and Moldova and Georgia, and should allow the North Caucasus and pretty much all of its ethnic republics to have legitimate, free independence referendums with observers from the United Nations present. Russia should also go to the United Nations and request their aid in finding a peaceful way to end their occupation of the puppet states of Crimea, South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Transnistria without an invasion from their "legal" governments.

Once it will be perfectly clear that the West has absolutely no hostile intentions against Russia, Putin will become obsolete.

So you're saying that if we want to avoid a war, we should avoid doing what you suggested at all costs? I have my doubts that Putin and the establishment would be okay with being made "obsolete".

Guardian is right. Putin and the rest of the oligarchy can only remain in power for as long as they have a bogeyman to protect the Russian people from.

[Knit tie]

I agree with Owl and G.I., Putin can stay in power only as long as he has an external "enemy" to defend the Russians against. The problem is that said "enemy" is purely fictional, at least in a sense that western people do not hate Russians. The governments may have their own fights and intrigues, but all this "enemy" hype is just an old Soviet trick used to consolidate power in the hands of the ruler.

[Descan]

The only way Russia can get anyone joining it's alliances is by force, coercian, and top-down influence from Russia. Or puppet-states like Bella Russia[sic]. So of course NATO can only get countries joining THEM by the same way, there's no way those countries could approach NATO and ask NATO to protect them, by their own proactive decision, because they live next to the guys who just 10-20 years ago had a steel-clad boot stamped on their neck.

Nope, has to be coerced.

(seriously, Russia has an ex-KGB agent as it's dictator for life Prime Presidential Minister Guy and you say it's changed. Hah. Tell me that when he stops meddling in ex-soviet states.)

I really think the only way to stop Russia from becoming the next Soviet Union or Nazi Germany or Napoleonic France is by assassinating Putin and his henchmen. AT LEAST Putin. I don't know how much of the apparatus revolves around him like it did around Hitler or Napoleon.

Otherwise, war feels inevitable, or at least armed conflicts, and people who have very little deciding power over the whole thing will get killed and the guy actually responsible will just keep getting rewarded for his bullshit.


i'm totally not throwing fuel on the fire guiz i totes love russia let's go there and get beaten by the homophobes yey

[scrdest]

(seriously, Russia has an ex-KGB agent as it's dictator for life Prime Presidential Minister Guy and you say it's changed.

I prefer the term 'Prime President'.

[Zangi]

This is why urban and vigilante warfare sucks. If people that wanted to shoot each other would quit hiding behind non-combatants (CNN reported a incidence where SOME force in a village had a line of women out in front of them as shields barricading a bridge or road) and just go out in a field and kill each other, I'd have a lot fewer problems with any of the shit going on in Ukraine.

This would probably be more likely if both sides only had swords/spears/clubs/bow&arrows instead of guns.

[ivze]

In Russian http://da-dzi.livejournal.com/206721.html on situation in Odessa.
Brief: nazi youths, responsive for recent massacre, being tracked by social networks and deanonimized. (Proof: http://de-de-de.livejournal.com/122081.html) . About 500 social network pages have been deleted by owners. Many escape from the city, expecting revenge, one killed.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

In Russian http://da-dzi.livejournal.com/206721.html on situation in Odessa.
Brief: nazi youths, responsive for recent massacre, being tracked by social networks and deanonimized. (Proof: http://de-de-de.livejournal.com/122081.html) . About 500 social network pages have been deleted by owners. Many escape from the city, expecting revenge, one killed.

Your 'proof' [of whatever you're saying] link leads to:
http://antimaydan.info/2014/05/spiski_pravogo_sektora_79079.html
A page of non-working images and random people's addresses.

That's a pretty unbiased source, gotta say.

[smjjames]

Aaaaand I've just gotten a call from my military friend, he said their division is going to mobilise soon. He doesn't know if it's for an offensive push or just for garrisoning Crimea with all the unrest going on. He also said while he has nothing against Ukrainians in general, he won't feel bad shooting terrorists.

I wished him to come back safe.

O.o

If anything, that sounds like a major hint that Putin is about to make his move soon. (and yes I'm reading from a couple pages back)

[ivze]

In Russian http://da-dzi.livejournal.com/206721.html on situation in Odessa.
Brief: nazi youths, responsive for recent massacre, being tracked by social networks and deanonimized. (Proof: http://de-de-de.livejournal.com/122081.html) . About 500 social network pages have been deleted by owners. Many escape from the city, expecting revenge, one killed.

Your 'proof' [of whatever you're saying] link leads to:
http://antimaydan.info/2014/05/spiski_pravogo_sektora_79079.html
A page of non-working images and random people's addresses.

That's a pretty unbiased source, gotta say.

There are plenty of images beyond the two other links. We can't check, whether they are fake or not. I would say, we have no reason to believe, they are fake.

[smjjames]

This is why urban and vigilante warfare sucks. If people that wanted to shoot each other would quit hiding behind non-combatants (CNN reported a incidence where SOME force in a village had a line of women out in front of them as shields barricading a bridge or road) and just go out in a field and kill each other, I'd have a lot fewer problems with any of the shit going on in Ukraine.

Perfect time for a Holmgång then.

What's a Holmgång?

(I know I could edit my own post, but theres a reply in between and I'm done quoting from a few pages back).

[ivze]

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/05/03/a-peoples-war-in-east-ukraine/

[smjjames]

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/05/03/a-peoples-war-in-east-ukraine/

The author sounds pretty biased against whatever the west is doing, or more specifically whatever the US is doing and linking it to something that isn't actually happening. I'd say to the author to provide proof that the Ukraine government is being controlled by Washington.


Plus it's an opinion piece, not actual news.

[Sergarr]

Even more astonishing, beyond geography and cultural ties, an experiment in Western Ukraine is quite eye opening. Ukranian TV in the central western town of Zhytomir sent Maidan activists posing as armed south-eastern rebels to the town center asking for directionsThey were apparently quite surprised that local residents willingly helped them - even giving details on how to avoid police checkpoints. Then they stood for a time--armed--by the local police station, and no one paid them any attention. In other words, the mask is off, and the junta is done.

If that is true, then this is hilarious.

[smjjames]

Even more astonishing, beyond geography and cultural ties, an experiment in Western Ukraine is quite eye opening. Ukranian TV in the central western town of Zhytomir sent Maidan activists posing as armed south-eastern rebels to the town center asking for directionsThey were apparently quite surprised that local residents willingly helped them - even giving details on how to avoid police checkpoints. Then they stood for a time--armed--by the local police station, and no one paid them any attention. In other words, the mask is off, and the junta is done.

If that is true, then this is hilarious.

Yeah, I pretty much stopped reading at first after I read the first paragraph about Washington backed and controlled junta. Btw, a junta is a government ruled by the military and this interim government is not led by the military. Heck, a government led by the military would be less incompetent (and probably more trigger happy) than the current Ukrainian government.

I did get a bit curious and read the rest of it, but it's all BS.

Some ACTUAL news:

The OSCE observers have been released (I kind of picked an article semi-randomly)
http://www.smh.com.au/world/prorussia-gunmen-in-ukraine-release-osce-arms-inspectors-20140504-zr47q.html

Not strictly news, but it does give a bit of a look into those that are being called rebels here.
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/headlines/20140503-masks-off-yet-separatist-rebels-in-ukraine-remain-a-riddle.ece