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Until I figure out how to un-close it, at least.

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So yeah.

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Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: May 01, 2014, 02:06:40 pm

[Owlbread]

Let's say that Russia suddenly breaks apart, Putin is no more, Russian military disappears. BlindKitty, If you and your people were given reign upon a nearby region, what would you start doing?

This is one of those "evil Westerners are out to get us and exploit us" posts again, isn't it?

Belarus doesn't hate Russia and Russians.

The opposition isn't exactly happy with Russia though, unless you don't consider them important.

I have a feeling, however, that the majority of people in Western countries, especially America don't discern Russians and Belarusians (anything that speaks Russian = Russian)

Belarusians who do not want to speak Belarusian, who would support another USSR dominated by Russia, who consider themselves as belonging to the same "nation" as Russia, just divided long ago by Imperial powers, whose claims to a "national identity" are founded in the idea that they are "more Russian than the Russians themselves, except they like potatoes and work harder", who want to be as close to Russia as possible, who watch Russian television, who read Russian books, who defend Russia at every turn, please explain how they are anything but Russians with a Belarusian regional identity?

and thus when the war comes and NATO soldiers, following in their grandfathers' footsteps, will start massacring Russian civilians, Belarusians will be hit too

Oh jesus christ here we go with Guardian's "NATO are actually Nazi Germany" pig excrement. My Grandfather served with the British Army in Egypt, Yemen and Cyprus, he had nothing to do with massacring Russian civilians. Please stop this nonsense.

Judging by the amount of anti-Russian fervour present among many people in the EU and the US, I'm afraid it's inevitable.

Examples, please.

American soldiers had no reason for killing unarmed civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq, and yet they did.

Just as Russians had no reason for killing unarmed civilians in Afghanistan and more recently in the two Chechen wars, yet they did.

When they will come to territories populated by what they think are savage vodka drinkers, they will not be particularly merciful. Sorry guys, but that's what I think.

You might think that, but it's utter, utter tripe. Infuriating, even. So infuriating and patronizing I don't even know where to begin. If it comforts you the thing that will protect you from any sort of atrocity is that you are white, Christian and European. Chechens (though they are white and European), Iraqis and Afghans don't tick all those boxes and were thus less lucky.

[BlindKitty]

@ivze: given reign by whom? And how to we define 'me and my people' here? Am I in charge, or the current government of Poland? Because that's, like, a HUGE difference.

@Guardian G.I.: I've some... Mixed reports as far as the Belarussians and Russians go about not liking each other. But that's true, I might have forgotten about Belarus, because of the fact that Lukashenko is more of a Putin's viceroy than a independent ruler of a country (not mention he is a dictator), and it's easy to lump you with Russia. But seeing as saying good things about West in Belarus can get you arrested, I can't say any reports from there an unbiased.

[ivze]

Let's say that Russia suddenly breaks apart, Putin is no more, Russian military disappears. BlindKitty, If you and your people were given reign upon a nearby region, what would you start doing?

This is one of those "evil Westerners are out to get us and exploit us" posts again, isn't it?

Your implications are biased

@ivze: given reign by whom? And how to we define 'me and my people' here? Am I in charge, or the current government of Poland? Because that's, like, a HUGE difference.
lump you with Russia. But seeing as saying good things about West in Belarus can get you arrested, I can't say any reports from there an unbiased.

By The Force, that's just dissolved Russian Federation in and put, let's say, you in charge of some former piece of the country.

[Owlbread]

Your implications are biased

I am biased, yes. Heavily. I've never said otherwise. I'd like you to refute those implications though.

By The Force, that's just dissolved Russian Federation in and put, let's say, you in charge of some former piece of the country.

You may need to be clearer with your question here.

@Guardian G.I.: I've some... Mixed reports as far as the Belarussians and Russians go about not liking each other. But that's true, I might have forgotten about Belarus, because of the fact that Lukashenko is more of a Putin's viceroy than a independent ruler of a country (not mention he is a dictator), and it's easy to lump you with Russia.

Under Lukashenko, Belarus is essentially a smaller version of Russia with worse human rights under almost direct Russian control through a puppet ruler.

But seeing as saying good things about West in Belarus can get you arrested, I can't say any reports from there an unbiased.

You may have noticed how Guardian G.I. effectively airbrushed the existence of the political opposition in Belarus.

[da_nang]

Judging by the amount of anti-Russian fervour present among many people in the EU and the US, I'm afraid it's inevitable.

Examples, please.

Well, there's some russophobia in Finland but it isn't widespread. However, considering what Finland went through (Russification in the 19th century, Eugen Schaumann martyr, Finnish Civil War, Winter War and Continuation War in the 20th), the russophobes gain more ground the more aggressive Russia turns out to be. Goodness forbid Aleksandr Dugin and similar minded individuals ever gain power in Russia.

[Owlbread]

Well, there's some russophobia in Finland but it isn't widespread. However, considering what Finland went through (Russification in the 19th century, Eugen Schaumann martyr, Finnish Civil War, Winter War and Continuation War in the 20th), the russophobes gain more ground the more aggressive Russia turns out to be. Goodness forbid Aleksandr Dugin and similar minded individuals ever gain power in Russia.

I'm not denying that there's Russophobia in the West, I'm asking for examples of the overwhelming torrent of anti-Russian sentiment, described by Guardian G.I., that would be necessary to lead to Western troops massacring Russian civilians (a la Nazi Germany) in the event of a war in the 21st century. In case you didn't see it, that's what he was arguing.

[da_nang]

Chronology of Odessa incident. Images should at least convey the gist of it.

Spoiler: Those look like Molotovs to me (click to show/hide)

[Knit tie]

Oh god, here we go again, unstoppable force vs the immovable wall...

I think I should add more exclamation marks to the thread title.

[Owlbread]

Oh god, here we go again, unstoppable force vs the immovable wall...

I think I should add mor exclamation marks to the thread title.

I think "righteous indignation" is the perfect way of describing the emotions I feel discussing this subject. I give your proposal to add more exclamation marks my full endorsement.

[Mr. Strange]

Judging by the amount of anti-Russian fervour present among many people in the EU and the US, I'm afraid it's inevitable.

Examples, please.

Well, there's some russophobia in Finland but it isn't widespread. However, considering what Finland went through (Russification in the 19th century, Eugen Schaumann martyr, Finnish Civil War, Winter War and Continuation War in the 20th), the russophobes gain more ground the more aggressive Russia turns out to be. Goodness forbid Aleksandr Dugin and similar minded individuals ever gain power in Russia.

We also have small Russian minority that's growing, yet they don't get any discrimination from the state despite there being some very racistic people here wanting to limit their certain rights like language and residence. This isn't problem for Finnish-Russian relations, because these same people are also anti-EU and anti-NATO, and that makes them Putins best frends.

If Russia wants to reduce "anti-Russian fervour present among many people in the EU and the US", their actions certainly aren't suggesting that. It's more like intentionally escalating things by evocing old soviet-era rethorics. Seriously, not helping.

[Knit tie]

Sorry about that outburst, Owlbread. It's just that you and Guardian have already discussed this multiple times in the past, fervently and to no effect.

[Owlbread]

If Russia wants to reduce "anti-Russian fervour present among many people in the EU and the US", their actions certainly aren't suggesting that. It's more like intentionally escalating things by evocing old soviet-era rethorics. Seriously, not helping.

"Russia", or more accurately the oligarchy currently controlling Russia with Putin as a figurehead, know this. They're doing it deliberately. They want anti-Russian fervour in the EU and the US. They want a lot of it, specifically just enough to justify their autocratic and almost perpetual rule over the people of Russia. They'll "protect" Russian people, you see. They'll protect them from the evil Westerners who only want to exploit them.

Sorry about that outburst, Owlbread. It's just that you and Guardian have already discussed this multiple times in the past, fervently and to no effect.

I know this, I'm sure we'll keep on discussing it though as long as it doesn't lead to a flame war or something. A bit of righteous indignation is enjoyable, isn't it? Keeps things interesting.

[Guardian G.I.]

If Russia wants to reduce "anti-Russian fervour present among many people in the EU and the US", their actions certainly aren't suggesting that. It's more like intentionally escalating things by evocing old soviet-era rethorics. Seriously, not helping.

"Russia", or more accurately the oligarchy currently controlling Russia with Putin as a figurehead, know this. They're doing it deliberately. They want anti-Russian fervour in the EU and the US. They want a lot of it, specifically just enough to justify their autocratic and almost perpetual rule over the people of Russia. They'll "protect" Russian people, you see. They'll protect them from the evil Westerners who only want to exploit them.

I haven't posted a reply to your previous posts to my emotional and rather non-rational outburst, but anyway.
As the little-known Soviet child song goes, "Собака бывает кусачей только от жизни собачей".
You can't prove the danger of any other country to anyone if it has no means or haven't made any moves hostile to you and the country you live in. I can say that China wants to overthrow the Belarusian government, even though China has never done anything like this to anyone in recent history, doesn't have the means to do it, and doesn't have an ideology which is used to justify such actions.
A lot of American actions towards Russia done over the past decades can be described as potentially hostile, like the eastward spread of NATO or the placement of anti-ballistic missile defence close to Russian borders, which can perfectly destroy Russian ICBMs during ascend, thus nullifying Russian nuclear deterrence forces. Zbigniew Brzezinski along with his numerous ramblings, including the ones about the need to control Eurasian (and Russian) national resources to maintain American world superiority has been very influential among people in the White House from the 1970s up until today. You can't say that people in charge with geopolitical views as "You must control the territory of this country to rule the world" are friendly to you. Brzezinski's ramblings were based on Halford J. Mackinder's Heartland Theory, which states that the Heartland or Pivot Area (suspiciously including a lot of Russian territories) must be put under control to establish global dominance. This theory had influenced American foreign policy, hence the encirclement of Russia with NATO military bases.

The perfect way to reduce Russia's distrust of the West would be this - stop doing potentially hostile acts. Dissolve NATO or move its bases away from Russian borders, move those ABM systems to Iranian borders if they are intended to stop Iranian missiles or scrap them altogether, dissolve the NED, stop financing and supporting pro-Western opposition in Russia and countries close to Russia (I can totally imagine Ran Paul or Alex Jones running to the Russian embassy to lament about that damn American government), put Brzezinski and other anti-Russian statesmen like McCain in a retirement home with no communication devices and writing tools, dismiss the Heartland theory, stop making films and movies with Russians being the bad guys (did you know that during the Cold War, Soviet film studios haven't made even a single film with plots about evil NATO invading the USSR and brave soldiers/partisans fighting them?), and so on, and so forth. And voila!
The necessity of tightening up screws in the society to protect it against someone becomes rather questionable if that someone doesn't appears to be intending to attack you in any way. Once it will be perfectly clear that the West has absolutely no hostile intentions against Russia, Putin will become obsolete.

By the way, did you know that India plans to destroy everyone with nuclear weapons? The Indian leadership is secretly following instructions written by Mahatma Gandhi, which can be summed up as "Nuke everyone and everything"... Why wouldn't you believe me?

[GlyphGryph]

Judging by the amount of anti-Russian fervour always present among many people in the EU and the US over the past years, I'm afraid it's inevitable. American soldiers had no reason for killing unarmed civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq, and yet they did. When they will come to territories populated by what they think are savage vodka drinkers, they will not be particularly merciful. Sorry guys, but that's what I think.]*[/abbr], Belarusians will be hit too.

There is no anti-Russian fervour in the US. There's some cold-war holdovers, and some senior politicians with entirely legitimate grievances, but the vast majority of the population holds no ill will towards Russians. The problem, the disconnect, is that you seem to believe that Russia even registers on the radar for Americans. It doesn't! There is no ill will against Russia, because the average person, if they think about Russians at all, just feels sad for them, for being stuck in Russia. They do not think of Russia as a threat, and do not think of Russian's as an enemy. Most people in the US could not even visually identify a Russian without the old stereotypes of the USSR, and frankly if there's no clear visual indicator and they don't believe their well-being is threated (they don't), they aren't going to hate you or probably feel very strongly about you at all.

The people of the US do not hate Russia. They simply don't care. Russia is not important to the vast majority of people living in the States.

Now, China? China is a super-power, a threat in a multitude of ways, it's stealing our jobs, making our stuff - we're both dependent on and competing with foreigners who are obviously visually different, who have a hefty population. There is definitely anti-chinese fervour in parts of the US, or at the very least a lot of worry and fretting about them. Because to a significant portion of the US, China matters. Russia, though? Russia does not.

[Mr. Strange]

Guardian, you forgot the part about USA sponsored coups in baltic countries and other new NATO members, because common people in those countries would never willingly join such evil organization aimed against peaceful Russia they feel nothing but brotherly love towards...