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Until I figure out how to un-close it, at least.

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So yeah.

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Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: May 01, 2014, 02:06:40 pm

[Ukrainian Ranger]

There are a lot of survivors from that building. Most were saved in fact. It looked like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOBFfMk0rkw  Yeah, below are exactly those "horrible Ukrainians that  are like Nazies and burn people alive" and you can see that no one tried to stop firefighters. If that was and intentional arson to kill, you'd not see firefighters there

Mmhmm, so of the large crowd, all 30 that died were Russian or Transnistrian. Interesting.

That is a rumor so far. Most aren't identified. Those that identified ( 8 ) are locals but that is logical because locals are the easiest to identify

[nenjin]

As an aside, I find it interesting how information and disinformation have been at play in this conflict since the beginning. For all our praise of social media, instant reports, photographic evidence....it's all still mostly meaningless, as the facts and the truth on the ground are still in the middle of a simmering warzone and the fog of war is still just as effect. A photo of some armed dudes is just a spec of time and facts, when the truth of who they were, and who they really were (since everyone has a motive to lie about their affiliation in this conflict) is something that will probably not be made public as the next calamity occurs and this whole thing picks up more speed. And even if the truth was revealed for a moment, what then? Either side alleges a lie:

Mmhmm, so of the large crowd, all 30 that died were Russian or Transnistrian. Interesting.

Russian media claimed today at morning that all dead people that were identified at that moment were residents of Odessa.

Spoiler: A poster thing I've found of one of pro-Russian forces' blogs (click to show/hide)

Translation: You'd better pray, you scum
Odessa, Slavyansk, 2.5.2014
We will never forget and will forgive no one

Or the next horrible shit occurs which pretty much just makes that fact a bullet point in the timeline of the books that will be written about this in 5 years. It makes me wonder if social media and technology hasn't actually contributed to the violence, as someone posts a video, asserts facts perhaps not in evidence, peoples' passions get inflamed and they decide to act themselves and start sending out text messages to organize their friends into militias.

There are a lot of survivors from that building. Most were saved in fact. It looked like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOBFfMk0rkw  Yeah, below are exactly those "horrible Ukrainians that  are like Nazies and burn people alive" and you can see that no one tried to stop firefighters. If that was and intentional arson to kill, you'd not see firefighters there

I see a crowd of good decent people or voyeurs trying to help fire fighters get people out. So that makes me ask, with a building full of so many innocent people, what patriotic, intelligent Ukrainian decided to throw molotov cocktails at it while they were still inside? 

This is why urban and vigilante warfare sucks. If people that wanted to shoot each other would quit hiding behind non-combatants (CNN reported a incidence where SOME force in a village had a line of women out in front of them as shields barricading a bridge or road) and just go out in a field and kill each other, I'd have a lot fewer problems with any of the shit going on in Ukraine.

So it's hard for me to look at any side with sympathy here, except for Ukrainians who are just trying to live in this shit hole everyone is creating.

[XXSockXX]

Spoiler: Oh, and that is that innocent guys that "were killed by bloodthirsty Ultras" (click to show/hide)

I've tried using Google Image Search on that photo to find the source, but weirdly enough, it didn't work. Surely Google Image Search is cooperating with Russian imperialists.

That Guardian article I posted earlier has a very similar picture, citing a Reuters photographer as source, so it may very well be authentic.
BTW, the journalist who wrote the article is currently in Odessa and has some pictures from the riot on his twitter, none like this though.

[da_nang]

This is why urban and vigilante warfare sucks. If people that wanted to shoot each other would quit hiding behind non-combatants (CNN reported a incidence where SOME force in a village had a line of women out in front of them as shields barricading a bridge or road) and just go out in a field and kill each other, I'd have a lot fewer problems with any of the shit going on in Ukraine.

Perfect time for a Holmgång then.

[nenjin]

I remember once in grade school they posed us a theoretical question about how law and justice and crime could be handled. And this was pretty much my answer, even as a kid.

[Knit tie]

To be fair, the extremists comprise only a small part of both sides. A whole lot of Russians and, I'm sure, even more Ukrainians are perfectly content with letting other people have demonstrations and whatnot, it's just that the occasional violent thug doesn't, and then he gets noticed and proclaimed as the sole component of the side he represents.

[BlindKitty]

Well, I'd say that threats of Russian intervention are a thing that sends the heat through the roof. As far as I'm concerned, if there was an attack on pro-Polish manifestation in my city by some pro-Russian, I would personally go out with a brick to throw. You see, we don't like Russians here, in Eastern Europe, as has been noticed before. I'm actually pretty sure that only country which had border with Russia and still likes them is Germany (but maybe even Germans don't like them, it might be a little complicated here). Everybody else pretty much hates them, and for good reasons. And Ukraine, being threatened by Russia right now, is probably full of people who are very willing to stand up and fight against incursion. Maybe not a large percentage of them (for Poland it's 15%, if you recall), but it is still millions upon millions of people willing to stop Russians from invading. One Russkie at a time.

So about Odessa fire - with the police in Ukraine rolling how it rolls, I can't blame people there for setting this building on fire. I can't say it is a good thing, but I can't also say that did a bad thing. They want to fight the genuine, terrible threat (and yeah, I don't think Russia today is a good place for a non-Russian person, not better than a 150 years ago), and there actually receive very, very little help from outside. I'm feeling pretty cornered by the Russia at the moment, and I'm in Poland, actually. I don't even want to think what they feel like... And we all know that being cornered makes you fight more.

[Sheb]

Germany doesn't share borders with Russia. 

Also, regarding the fire, both sides were throwing molotovs. For all we know, the guys inside caused the fire. And as has been shown before, the crowd was rather helpful, trying to get the people out of the building. It's a tragedy, but not a massacre.

[LordSlowpoke]

sweden maybe

pretty sure sweden doesn't hate russia

[scrdest]

Germany doesn't share borders with Russia. 

Also, regarding the fire, both sides were throwing molotovs. For all we know, the guys inside caused the fire. And as has been shown before, the crowd was rather helpful, trying to get the people out of the building. It's a tragedy, but not a massacre.

HAD, not HAS.

[ivze]

Let's say that Russia suddenly breaks apart, Putin is no more, Russian military disappears. BlindKitty, If you and your people were given reign upon a nearby region, what would you start doing?

[Guardian G.I.]

I'm actually pretty sure that only country which had border with Russia and still likes them is Germany

Belarus doesn't hate Russia and Russians.
I have a feeling, however, that the majority of people in Western countries, especially America don't discern Russians and Belarusians (anything that speaks Russian = Russian) and thus when the war comes and NATO soldiers, following in their grandfathers' footsteps, will start massacring Russian civilians*, Belarusians will be hit too.

[da_nang]

I'm actually pretty sure that only country which had border with Russia and still likes them is Germany

Belarus doesn't hate Russia and Russians.

While they may not hate each other, wasn't there a report where the Belarusian government was getting more concerned over Russo-Belarusian relations due Russia's actions in the Ukrainian crisis?

[Sergarr]

From what I've been hearing the Lukashenko (Belarus president) is kinda like Zhjirinoskiy in that he often makes some nonsensical statements.

[da_nang]

UR, I'm hearing reports of Ukrainian military gaining ground in Sloviansk. Can you confirm?