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Until I figure out how to un-close it, at least.
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Voting closed: May 01, 2014, 02:06:40 pm


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Author Topic: Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: On Lockdown Due to Excessive Politicking  (Read 160832 times)

Owlbread

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Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1770 on: May 03, 2014, 12:47:31 pm »

Real identity of a key participant of the criminal subversive group of 'Strielok' has been established

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

But on a more serious note...

Lex talionis at work, I guess.

"Isaac was my friend he cried
He begged them with his tears
But centuries of hatred
Have ears that do not hear
An eye for an eye
That was all that filled their minds
And another eye for another eye
Till everyone was blind"


I came up with an idea that the WWII situation like this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khatyn_massacre,
when village people are collected in big building and burned alive are like a natural outcome of events, when a militarised group is executing an order against civilian people.

It's like we fight them, they hide, as if they don't hide, they die. Then someone sets the building on fire. If people are trying to escape, they die. Then everyone is killed. And there is none to blame directly among the executors.

Very observant. I agree with this analysis. It certainly worked for the Russians when they were butchering Chechens at the end of WW2, except in their case setting the barn on fire that burned 700 people to death in Khaibakh was deliberate whereas the Odessa killings seem to have been unplanned and largely accidental. But yes, regardless of history I hope that the ultras that threw the molotovs are charged for their crimes.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 01:04:03 pm by Owlbread »
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Urist McManiac

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Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1771 on: May 03, 2014, 12:52:42 pm »

Because he's had way too much hatorade and thinks in dichotomies. And you shouldn't do it, too. The absolute majority of Maidanians are decent people, those arsonist guys were just a small gang of extremists.

While that is certainly true, it's exactly those groups of extremists (on both sides) on which a lot of people base their opinions. If there aren't any steps taken against the people involved in this event, it will only act as a fuel for the Russian propaganda machine and may even (let's hope not) provide a casus belli for Putin. Admittedly, I haven't yet informed myself about the exact situation, but right now I've only heard about the fact that some official in Odessa said that the actions of the pro-Ukrainians were lawful. Such behavior isn't exactly a perfect example of peaceful conflict solving. Well, attacking peaceful protesters is neither, mind you.

b) They weren't killed intentionally. It wasn't a planned arson. That just happened during exchange of molotovs cocktails. If that was intentional lynching you would see at least few hundreds dead

While I don't take sides in this conflict and can definitly understand your anger, that's just stupid. If someone is throwing flame bombs on a building, he should know that it will go up in flames sooner or later.
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Sheb

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Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1772 on: May 03, 2014, 12:59:26 pm »

From what I've heard, the guys inside were throwing molotovs and shooting too. It seems less a case of massacring civilians and more of a case of a riots gone bad.
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nenjin

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Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1773 on: May 03, 2014, 01:00:53 pm »

I wonder how many of those that died in that fire were hostages rather than separatists.

I've upgraded (downgraded?) my estimate for Ukraine to "pretty much fucked", at the current rate things are going. The stated conditions for further Russian intervention have basically been met, political authority and stability outside of Kiev is fragmenting, people are starting to go vigilante, atrocities are starting to be committed (or at least stories are being told about them, ratcheting up tension levels on everyone) and Ukraine's only option is to act with more, not less, force to try to stop it all. Which, if they actually succeed in achieving something like that.....there's Russia, ready to invade when Ukrainian forces are at their most vulnerable. There was never really a chance of sustained Ukrainian military resistance to the full weight of the Russian military in Ukraine. But after fighting to retake several cities they're going to be in even less of a position to mount a coordinated response to another Russian incursion.

I feel Ukraine is ultimately going to go the way of Syria with regards to Western action if the situation continues to escalate. Time was played for in Syria, no one was willing to commit to anything because of how volatile the consequences would be and the convenient shield of which alliances countries are or aren't part of, sanctions were levied until there was nothing else to do or say, and the misery has just continued unabated as central authority broke down further and different factions started operating independently in the region. The biggest difference is that a world power may step in to claim Ukraine and put a definitive end to it, one way or another. But if that happens I imagine the Ukraine will be a bitter pill for Russia for many, many years to come. If Ukraine holds on to their territory and their government establishes itself, they will have to deal with Pro-Russian separatists and insurgents, probably supported if not staffed by Russian operators, for several years at least. Unless it militarizes the shit out of itself and pours much of its (possibly now denied) IMF funds into armament. If Russia takes Ukraine as a whole, either through invasion or because the new government dissolves in the face of a civil war and they step in as a "stabilizing force", they will have to deal with Ukrainian Nationalists and Ultranationalists, fighting a guerrilla war against their occupiers for who knows how long.

Quote
It certainly worked for the Russians when they were butchering Chechens at the end of WW2, except in their case setting the barn on fire that burned 700 people to death in Khaibakh was deliberate whereas the Odessa killings seem to have been unplanned and largely accidental.

There is nothing accidental about throwing molotovs cocktails at a building. The cause and effect of that are pretty clear. Maybe the intent was to take control of the building back by simply removing the building from the equation. But the results were not a matter of "oops!." Anymore than throwing a pipe bomb into a room with the intent of getting people to vacate it. That's like saying "I'm going to shoot my bullets in your general direction, and if you're standing there, well, that's sort of your fault."
« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 01:23:50 pm by nenjin »
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Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1774 on: May 03, 2014, 01:02:24 pm »

Aaaaand I've just gotten a call from my military friend, he said their division is going to mobilise soon. He doesn't know if it's for an offensive push or just for garrisoning Crimea with all the unrest going on. He also said while he has nothing against Ukrainians in general, he won't feel bad shooting terrorists.

I wished him to come back safe.
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Owlbread

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Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1775 on: May 03, 2014, 01:05:10 pm »

He also said while he has nothing against Ukrainians in general, he won't feel bad shooting terrorists.

This entire conflict seems like a classic example of that old maxim "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" in action.

There is nothing accidental about throwing molotovs cocktails at a building. The cause and effect of that are pretty clear. Maybe the intent was to take control of the building back by simply removing the building from the equation. But the results were not a matter of "oops!." Anymore than throwing a pipe bomb into a room with the intent of getting people to vacate it. That's like saying "I'm going to shoot my bullets in your general direction, and if you're standing there, well, that's sort of your fault."

I can't disagree with this assessment. The killed Russian activists inside the building may not have been the deified, innocent, peaceful protestors that will appear in propaganda but it's pretty indisputable that any decent court would find the ultras guilty of murder for throwing the molotovs. I was trying to say that they may not have set out to burn them all to death (unlike the Soviets in Khaibakh and during the Katyn massacre) but they still threw the petrol bombs.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 01:09:51 pm by Owlbread »
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1776 on: May 03, 2014, 01:10:09 pm »

I'd very much prefer a civilized way with them going to jail instead of all that shit... But that was impossible with the way police acted.

That kinds of attacks by thugs happened many times the last few months... With peaceful protesters being injured, maimed or even killed. And every time attackers were unpunished with police doing close to nothing.  This time situation went different way. Victims fought back. And half of the city rushed to aid them

Quote
If people are trying to escape, they die.
That never happened.Many did escape. And stayed alive. Hell, they were aided to escape by the crowd that gathered around.

Quote
If someone is throwing flame bombs on a building, he should know that it will go up in flames sooner or later.
And when someone throws flame bombs from inside the building he should know that one misplaced throw may be bad for your health... And that you may get the same thing back.
Oh, and don't barricade yourself in a building....


« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 01:13:22 pm by Ukrainian Ranger »
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GrizzlyAdamz

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Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1777 on: May 03, 2014, 01:13:24 pm »

Supposedly the two groups were exchanging bricks and molotovs around the city before the Russians got cornered.
Were there any survivors? Aren't being mentioned if so.
That video looks like the crowd brought some scaffolding through the flames for the people on lower levels.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 01:17:14 pm by GrizzlyAdamz »
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Re: Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1778 on: May 03, 2014, 01:15:45 pm »

I've tried using Google Image Search on that photo to find the source, but weirdly enough, it didn't work. Surely Google Image Search is cooperating with Russian imperialists.
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Sheb

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Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1779 on: May 03, 2014, 01:16:31 pm »

Less than 30 Russians died. I doubt the whole riot was made of 30 people on their side.
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GrizzlyAdamz

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Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1780 on: May 03, 2014, 01:18:30 pm »

Mmhmm, so of the large crowd, all 30 that died were Russian or Transnistrian. Interesting.
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Re: Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1781 on: May 03, 2014, 01:20:58 pm »

While this is quite sad, I do think this
a) When you go to maim and kill be ready that you may be maimed or killed. Something guys that suffocated (not burned alive) failed to understand and paid for that
b) They weren't killed intentionally. It wasn't a planned arson. That just happened during exchange of molotovs cocktails. If that was intentional lynching you would see at least few hundreds dead
does bear a grain of truth.
And also this:
From what I've heard, the guys inside were throwing molotovs and shooting too. It seems less a case of massacring civilians and more of a case of a riots gone bad.
Mind you, I'm not saying what happened was justified. But sad as it is, this does seem to be (at least from my sources) an open conflict between two battle-ready groups. And people get hurt in those. And the fact that things have come so far arsons like this one are a very real possibility, is sad.
From where I got it, it was translated and summarized:
Quote
Luhansk separatist leader Bolotov announces full mobilization of male population in Luhansk region, calls for 'march on Kiev', introduces curfew, issues ultimatum to all who disagree with these actions, to leave the region this evening.
And this, if real, are the most horrible thing.
This will not stabilize the situation. This leads into full-blown civil war.
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Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1782 on: May 03, 2014, 01:22:51 pm »

Mmhmm, so of the large crowd, all 30 that died were Russian or Transnistrian. Interesting.
Russian media claimed today at morning that all dead people that were identified at that moment were residents of Odessa.

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Urist McManiac

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Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1783 on: May 03, 2014, 01:23:55 pm »

From what I've heard, the guys inside were throwing molotovs and shooting too. It seems less a case of massacring civilians and more of a case of a riots gone bad.
And when someone throws flame bombs from inside the building he should know that one misplaced throw may be bad for your health... And that you may get the same thing back.
Oh, and don't barricade yourself in a building....

Oh, please remind me where I said the pro-Russian guys were completely innocent lambs. I kinda forgot where I posted this.

More seriously, both sides have gone nuts. I totally understand the pro-Ukrainian guys defending themselves, that is only fair. Torching a building with 40 people in it on the other hand... not so much. And "but they started!!!!" isn't exactly the best justification for it.
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da_nang

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Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1784 on: May 03, 2014, 01:28:01 pm »

From what I've heard, the guys inside were throwing molotovs and shooting too. It seems less a case of massacring civilians and more of a case of a riots gone bad.
And when someone throws flame bombs from inside the building he should know that one misplaced throw may be bad for your health... And that you may get the same thing back.
Oh, and don't barricade yourself in a building....

Oh, please remind me where I said the pro-Russian guys were completely innocent lambs. I kinda forgot where I posted this.

More seriously, both sides have gone nuts. I totally understand the pro-Ukrainian guys defending themselves, that is only fair. Torching a building with 40 people in it on the other hand... not so much. And "but they started!!!!" isn't exactly the best justification for it.
When is something ever morally justifiable? It's all about morals and goodness knows there's no universal one.
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