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Until I figure out how to un-close it, at least.
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Voting closed: May 01, 2014, 02:06:40 pm


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Author Topic: Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: On Lockdown Due to Excessive Politicking  (Read 159766 times)

scrdest

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Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1740 on: May 03, 2014, 06:36:45 am »

Speaking about (some) Ukrainian reactions to the Odessa fire...
Quote from: Sergei Lukyanenko, Russian writer and author of the book "Night Watch", post translated by me
In the post about Odessa I've intentionally unlocked practically all comments from "the other side". Comments from people living on the Ukrainian territory.
Read it. It should be read.
Being able to hear the voice of hell is not something that occurs often.

I don't know how Russia will react. I don't even know how it should react. If someone asked me for advice, I wouldn't say anything.
USA is pushing us to send troops. That means it's a trap. That means we mustn't do it.
That means let Ukrainian-speaking Ukrainians burn Russian-speaking Ukrainians. We shouldn't rescue thousands if millions will get killed in the process.
Probably. I don't know.

I only know that you can't write "bacon", "we fried them", "they couldn't fly" and remain human.
Read it. They are very happy now. They've burned 50 people alive, and haven't been punished. They liked it.
(link to original)

Lukyanenko, as much as I like his books, often exhibits an annoying degree of willful ignorance regarding things that paint Russia in negative light. Not based on this one - I've read his... article? Editorial? I don't know the English word somehow :3, about Katyn killings a couple of years ago and it was similarly 'totally reasonable and moderate, now here's my biased view of the situation'.
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10ebbor10

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Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1741 on: May 03, 2014, 06:38:30 am »

Nope, but perhaps it is an armed conflict.

IIRC
, to qualify as a war the conflict needs to last at least 1 year, and kill an average of a 1000 people a day.

that's a modern definition, right?

i could shove a really big amount of wars that were less than a year long at you soooooo
Emphasis added. Anyway, it's not because something is called a war that it is a war.
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XXSockXX

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Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1742 on: May 03, 2014, 07:47:40 am »

Ukrainian television channel 1+1 claims that among the people who died in the Trade Union Building fire in Odessa there were 15 Russian citizens and 5 citizens of Transdnestria.
If it's true, than depending on a political point of view one may assume that:

A. Russian provocateurs, separatists, spies and other very awful people organized and/or took part in Odessa riots;
B. Ukrainian Ultras have (indirectly, due to сarbon monoxide produced by the fire) killed 15 Russian citizens, who pretty much could be tourists or apolitical bystanders.

If the Russian government assumes that B actually happened, then the Ukrainian government can potentially find themselves in a world of hurt.
It's neither fully A nor B, the people who were killed were certainly not tourists or apolitical, but whether they acted of their own accord or on orders from Russia, or any kind of organisation for that matter, is not clear.
It appears that both sides were armed though.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-odessa-building-fire
Quote
The clashes reportedly began after protesters gathering for a rally in support of a unified Ukraine were attacked by pro-Russia activists armed with clubs and air pistols.

But the confrontation quickly escalated into a series of skirmishes as the two sides played a deadly cat and mouse game in the centre of the city.

Police largely stood aside as the two sides hurled molotov cocktails, cobblestones and bricks at each other. Girls as young as fourteen were smashing cobblestones to break them up into missiles of a manageable size.

Combatants on both sides were armed with body armour, helmets and shields and carried baseball bats, chains, metal bars and air pistols.

For two and a half hours the police were absent, said Olga Gold, a teacher watching the unrest. "The authorities have been absolutely indifferent," she said.

Quote
Pro-Russia fighters mounted a last-ditch defence of the burning building, throwing masonry and petrol bombs from the roof on to the crowd below.
Medics at the scene said the pro-Russia fighters were also shooting from the roof. At least five bodies with bullet wounds lay on the ground covered by Ukraine flags as fire engines and ambulances arrived at the scene.

If and how Russia will react now remains to be seen. While I wouldn't trust Putin not to invade after the events in Crimea, the release of the OSCE hostages could indicate that Russia uses it's influence to somewhat defuse the situation. On the other hand, if dead Russians are a reason to invade, they have that now, so everything is possible and Putin has proven that he is unreliable and not all that interested in de-escalation.

The Ukrainian public reaction is somewhat understandable in that the government has been perceived as inactive and weak, while these Ultras showed no such restraint. Still it is sad and disgusting that people dying a horrible death is celebrated in such a way, none of this was necessary and it should have been prevented by the police force. It is events like this that might very well drag the country into a civil war, lynching people and producing martyrs is often how these things get started.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1743 on: May 03, 2014, 08:04:24 am »

XXSockXX, Yeah, police should have prevented it. It didn't because at least part of it supported attackers and did nothing. When police is  unable to maintain law common citizens have a right and a duty for self-defense.

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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

smjjames

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Re: Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1744 on: May 03, 2014, 08:45:00 am »

Meanwhile in Russia, foreign kid's literature is corrupting the children.
Crimean Anschluss, book burnings, homophobia, censorship, crackdown on opposition, corruption, propaganda...

Oh the irony coming from a country hellbent on "ousting the fascists" in Ukraine. I guess they haven't polished that mirror in a long time...

Next, Putin will declare himself Tsar and abolish democracy (obviously not going to happen of course).

Yeah, Russia has been going down a road to some very dark places for a while now.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 08:50:02 am by smjjames »
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Knit tie

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Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1745 on: May 03, 2014, 09:00:20 am »

Laws to ban books such as these are not new, really, but I don't think it will pass. And even if it will, do you think Russian people are not used to deal wih this kind of censorship?

Remember the Soviet Union, guys. Current Russia has nothing on that.
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scriver

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Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1746 on: May 03, 2014, 10:20:42 am »

Laws to ban books such as these are not new, really, but I don't think it will pass. And even if it will, do you think Russian people are not used to deal wih this kind of censorship?

Remember the Soviet Union, guys. Current Russia has nothing on that.

Yeah, I probably should have mentioned that when I first heard it yesterday, the correspondent brought up that she wasn't sure if that she wasn't sure it would actually go anywhere, or if it was just politicians posturing like politicians often do.

I thought it was funny Karlsson-on-the-roof was among the literature chosen, though ;)
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da_nang

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Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1747 on: May 03, 2014, 10:39:10 am »

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Sheb

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Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1748 on: May 03, 2014, 10:43:34 am »

Uh, yeah? That guy sure looked mean. What was he saying?
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da_nang

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Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1749 on: May 03, 2014, 10:49:17 am »

From where I got it, it was translated and summarized:
Quote
Luhansk separatist leader Bolotov announces full mobilization of male population in Luhansk region, calls for 'march on Kiev', introduces curfew, issues ultimatum to all who disagree with these actions, to leave the region this evening.
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"Deliver yesterday, code today, think tomorrow."
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Guardian G.I.

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Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1750 on: May 03, 2014, 10:51:22 am »


Burning trolleybuses on streets of Kramatorsk.

Russian liberal-leaning business channel RBK compared the current situation in Ukraine with the immediate beginning of the Yugoslav Wars. I couldn't hear the arguments, though, because I spotted the program on a television set in a department store.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

ivze

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Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1752 on: May 03, 2014, 10:58:06 am »

UR, you are fighting hard to become a third-order citizen in the America - Europe - Other-junky-countries ecosystem. You are mad... :(
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GrizzlyAdamz

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Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1753 on: May 03, 2014, 11:05:48 am »

From where I got it, it was translated and summarized:
Quote
Luhansk separatist leader Bolotov announces full mobilization of male population in Luhansk region, calls for 'march on Kiev', introduces curfew, issues ultimatum to all who disagree with these actions, to leave the region this evening.

I'm curious to see how successful this conscription is. Have there been any major counter-insurgency operations in the Luhansk region?

If it's not so successful, I imagine he only made the announcement for the benefit of Russian propoganda.



UR, you are fighting hard to become a third-order citizen in the America - Europe - Other-junky-countries ecosystem. You are mad... :(
Mm, yes, meanwhile Russia's in the process of carving up his country. 'It'd be so much better if you just capitulated.'
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ivze

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Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: Righteous Idignation Edition.
« Reply #1754 on: May 03, 2014, 11:07:22 am »

Nope, GrizzlyAdamz, I just mean, he could be a first-order citizen within the Russian Federation :)
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