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Until I figure out how to un-close it, at least.

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So yeah.

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Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: May 01, 2014, 02:06:40 pm

[mainiac]

Their actual level? As always the best way to determine that is actual combat usage. I think it is pretty high. Not Israel or USA level high but high.

I think the better metric would be to look at the operations that never surface although these groups were obviously involved in conflicts.

IIRC the French special forces were geared towards counter insurgency yet there isn't a whole lot of documentation of what they were up to during the Algerian and Vietnamese conflicts.  They sure weren't twiddling their thumbs...

[Descan]

In SpecOps., "nothing" really is scarier.

[smjjames]

I don't suppose you guys have heard about the two bodies found in a river in eastern Ukraine? Both with signs of torture, one of them being a local pro-Ukrainian politician, the other is unidentified AFAIK. Given what I know of the Russian governments brutal tactics, I wouldn't be surprised if they had endorsed the killings.

http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27118875

Also, to no ones surprise (except maybe those who actually thought people would comply), that Geneva letter has had no affect.

[RedKing]

Hoo-boy. Let's see, we have:

1. Pro-Russian militants holding an American journalist captive.
2. Russia stating that they will intervene militarily in Ukraine if "their interests are threatened" (that's a hell of an ambiguous statement).
3. US troops being deployed (in small numbers) to Poland and the Baltics. And a NATO exercise scheduled for this summer to take place in Ukraine itself.

Yeah, there's no way this could end badly. 

[XXSockXX]

I don't suppose you guys have heard about the two bodies found in a river in eastern Ukraine? Both with signs of torture, one of them being a local pro-Ukrainian politician, the other is unidentified AFAIK. Given what I know of the Russian governments brutal tactics, I wouldn't be surprised if they had endorsed the killings.

http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27118875

Also, to no ones surprise (except maybe those who actually thought people would comply), that Geneva letter has had no affect.

Yeah, I heard of that.
The only effect the Geneva letter has had is both sides blaming each other for ignoring it.

Actually the situation seems to get worse, as Russia is threatening intervention in Eastern Ukraine, which makes Ukrainian attempts to deal with the increasingly aggressive separatists much harder.

[mainiac]

3. US troops being deployed (in small numbers) to Poland and the Baltics. And a NATO exercise scheduled for this summer to take place in Ukraine itself.

This article includes a perfect example of why I hate John McCain.

Sen. John McCain (R., Ariz.), during an MSNBC television appearance Tuesday, ridiculed Mr. Biden's warning to Russia that time for adhering to the Geneva agreement is running out. "Or else what?" Mr. McCain asked.

If the roles were reversed here and Senator Biden was undermining vice president McCain's foreign policy by ridiculing the American attempt to display solidarity, the republicans would be screaming treason accusations at Biden.  Losing the presidency race turned McCain into a despicable man but we still act like he's a statesman worthy of deference.

[Owlbread]

The Chechen resistance movement are big, big fans of John McCain.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

Eh, I've heard the opposite. That he's always been less..restricted than most, and his presidential race had him eating his old words and playing to his party's base like there was no tomorrow.
But then this isn't the US politics thread and I haven't been around long enough to know him before the race.

[Helgoland]

EDIT: Nevermind, read the article.

[Sheb]

Sen. John McCain (R., Ariz.), during an MSNBC television appearance Tuesday, ridiculed Mr. Biden's warning to Russia that time for adhering to the Geneva agreement is running out. "Or else what?" Mr. McCain asked.

If the roles were reversed here and Senator Biden was undermining vice president McCain's foreign policy by ridiculing the American attempt to display solidarity, the republicans would be screaming treason accusations at Biden.  Losing the presidency race turned McCain into a despicable man but we still act like he's a statesman worthy of deference.

How dare he criticize the government!

[Owlbread]

How dare he criticize the government!

How dare he indeed, filthy Republican that he is. I actually thought his question was pretty fair, considering we don't seem to have an answer yet.

[RedKing]

And a NATO exercise scheduled for this summer to take place in Ukraine itself.

Source?

The article I quoted in that same line.

The U.S. Army is planning to continue an annual NATO exercise in Ukraine this summer, called Rapid Trident. On Tuesday, Adm. Kirby said that planning is continuing.

As for McCain, I have to kind of agree with him. Obama has demonstrated a bad habit of drawing lines in the sand when we really can't enforce them. We drew a line with Assad and did what exactly? The only ultimatum we've actually backed up was Libya. We can enforce enact more sanctions, but those really aren't half as effective against a major country as they are against a small one. The G7 can cut economic ties to Libya or Syria or North Korea without too much detriment to themselves. That's not necessarily true of Russia, especially for the European members.

I'm not saying we should start sending arms to Ukraine or putting boots in the ground or trying to enforce a no-fly zone in Ukraine. But really, it makes us look like a paper tiger to keep wagging our finger at Russia and making vague threats. We either need to commit to a solid course of action or get the hell out of the way. Neither course is a very appetizing one and would have serious repercussions. But at least the credibility of the US's capacity to act would be preserved.

[mainiac]

How dare he criticize the government!

http://xkcd.com/1357/

My problem isn't that he is criticizing the government it's the hypocritical way he chooses his stances.

[mainiac]

As for McCain, I have to kind of agree with him. Obama has demonstrated a bad habit of drawing lines in the sand when we really can't enforce them. We drew a line with Assad and did what exactly?

We insisted on him giving up his chemical weapons and he gave up his chemical weapons.

Diplomacy isn't dog obedience training.  You don't smack them on the nose until they accept that you are the alpha.

[Owlbread]

I think Ukrainian Ranger will be very comforted by the next round of ultimatums as he watches the Eastern part of his country collapse into chaos.