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Until I figure out how to un-close it, at least.

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So yeah.

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Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: May 01, 2014, 02:06:40 pm

[smjjames]

Bandera Ukrainian = Ukrainian who doesn't want to be a Russian. 

Okay.

I kind of view that as being like calling Spanish a peasant tongue, which it isn't. Or maybe a better example would be how the British tend to look down on the Cockney English accent?

The difference there is that Cockney is just a dialect of English. Ukrainian and Russian are separate fully fledged languages like Swedish and Norwegian or Czech and Slovak or Dutch and German. Probably the closest match in a UK setting would be one of my own languages; Scots, in contrast to English. Scots and English are sister tongues and are very similar in their histories to Ukrainian and Russian. I feel an affinity with Ukrainian language activists for this reason. Scots actually is the closest language to English.

In English we call people from Flanders "Flemings".

Oh yeah, Flemish, right. That escaped me for some reason. Also, I thought Scots was a deriverative (or branch off) of English with some Gaelic mixed in? Shows what I know.

@Owlbread: Not one of those that doubt Russia was a colonial power. After all, they are the ones that we bought Alaska from.

[Knit tie]

Knit tie
I can differentiate between cells and the organism as a whole. Russia is a very sick organism while most of it cells are quite nice. As for hate... This song (In Russian) explains what we, Ukrainians feel nowadays. No, it is not hate. It is - "we don't want friends like you."

Neither we want rulers like Putin. Aside from those who buy his lies, we want him out. Please don't blame us for his actions.

[Loud Whispers]

Don't some Russians say that the Ukranian language is a bandera (meaning bandit) language? Just pointing out a bit of hypocricy since bandera-Ukranians sounds like it could apply to ALL Ukranians.

This just reminds me too much of the Argie propaganda that accidentally made the British out to be sexy pirates. All Ukraine needs to do is get Antonio Banderas with a zorro mask singing the Ukrainian national anthem and they could own their bandit language, whereas the Russians would be stuck with a language made by a priest.

I kind of view that as being like calling Spanish a peasant tongue, which it isn't. Or maybe a better example would be how the British tend to look down on the Cockney English accent?

Eh?

[smjjames]

Knit tie
I can differentiate between cells and the organism as a whole. Russia is a very sick organism while most of it cells are quite nice. As for hate... This song (In Russian) explains what we, Ukrainians feel nowadays. No, it is not hate. It is - "we don't want friends like you."

Neither we want rulers like Putin. Aside from those who buy his lies, we want him out. Please don't blame us for his actions.

Yet you voted him in with a popular vote higher than any American President ever had at the polls? Granted maybe that was during a wave of hope for change like we had with Obama.

Don't some Russians say that the Ukranian language is a bandera (meaning bandit) language? Just pointing out a bit of hypocricy since bandera-Ukranians sounds like it could apply to ALL Ukranians.

This just reminds me too much of the Argie propaganda that accidentally made the British out to be sexy pirates. All Ukraine needs to do is get Antonio Banderas with a zorro mask singing the Ukrainian national anthem and they could own their bandit language, whereas the Russians would be stuck with a language made by a priest.

I kind of view that as being like calling Spanish a peasant tongue, which it isn't. Or maybe a better example would be how the British tend to look down on the Cockney English accent?

Eh?

I was kind of rambling off somewhat. Somehow thought banderas was like bandit (except it means flag in spanish) since someone said the Russians calling the Ukranians a bandera language was like calling it a theif language or something. Something probably got lost in translation or misunderstood somewhere.

Also, isn't it just the Cyrillic alphabet that was made by a priest? Or I'm not getting the priest reference.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Perhaps one of the negotiating points should be that Ukrainian culture and history should be taught thoroughly in Eastern schools so that East Ukrainians know as much about Ukrainian culture as they do Russian.

In fact that kind of soft Ukrainiazation is ongoing right from 1991. Yeah sometimes it is sabotaged by offering boring stuff ( classical philosophical Ukrainian literature in early age is the best way to make someone hate Ukrainian language. I don't know if this is stupidity or ideological diversion) Also there are ideological wars on what should be in history books.... In Crimea due to their autonomy they had somewhat different education policy you can see the results

One thing that works great - modern Ukrainian music. Music is always an important part of culture and if song is good than it is good and it will be listened. Another thing that works great, especially among kids: Advertisements. Those must be in Ukrainian by law.

Ukraine is becoming more and more Ukrainian with every year. As long as we stay independent our culture will not die even if many Ukrainians will have Ukrainian only as the second language.


smjjames. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera
Bandera Ukrainians = followers of that guy. That was original meaning. Now it is more broad

[Knit tie]

Knit tie
I can differentiate between cells and the organism as a whole. Russia is a very sick organism while most of it cells are quite nice. As for hate... This song (In Russian) explains what we, Ukrainians feel nowadays. No, it is not hate. It is - "we don't want friends like you."

Neither we want rulers like Putin. Aside from those who buy his lies, we want him out. Please don't blame us for his actions.

Yet you voted him in with a popular vote higher than any American President ever had at the polls? Granted maybe that was during a wave of hope for change like we had with Obama.

It's Putin, so it was obviously rigged. And we first voted for him in the 90s, where any stability was very welcome, regardless of the man who will bring it.

[Owlbread]

Spoiler: truth and eloquence (click to show/hide)

Chechens had a long history of mutual hatred with mainland Russians, Ukrainians instead have one of brotherhood, barring, of course, the Right Sector and its Russian analogues.

Don't tell my myths, I have access to Russian internet and have seen too much hatred toward Ukrainians... I have seen modern Russian films and TV shows were all Ukrainians are bastards, cowards, traitors, idiots and so on

You mean the ones produced by Putin's propaganda machine in order to bolster nationalism and therefore his support and then justify the invasion that's occuring right now?

"Brothers", can you explain me - why Poland, Germany, Israel and many more countries offered to hospitalize those wounded at Maydan and provided treatment for free while Russia haven't even offered that?

Because Putin's propaganda department wanted to portray the Maidan activists as terrorists and criminals in order to justify the invasion that's occuring right now.

Explain me, why Poles, who, unlike Russian have real reasons to dislike guys who use red-black flags make songs that glorify the people that died at Maydan and Russian "brothers" don't?

We do. You just don't hear them on official radio because Putin's propaganda department wants to portray the Maidan activists as terrorists and criminals in order to justify the invasion that's occuring right now.

Right Sector? What do you know about the Right Sector that is coming not from Russian TV? I know that every Ukrainian killed will be named Right Sector members because no normal Ukrainian will fire in "brothers"

Stuff that's coming from english-language news sources that interviewed the Right Sector members, of course. And yes, Putin's propaganda department will definitely use the trick you described if it ever comes to an outright invasion, because Putin's propaganda department wants to portray the Maidan activists as terrorists and criminals in order to justify the invasion that's occuring right now.

You, Russians, know nothing about real Ukrainians. That Ukrainian who you believe are you brothers do not exist.  Ukrainians in your mind is nothing more than inferior version of Russians. Exactly what you always tried to create by force-assimilating us. And we are brothers only because you despise other nations more than us. Sorry, role of the least despised national group of "almost Russians" is not for us.

Congratulations! Have a "propaganda victim" point! You did it! You now hate Russians! As people! Regardless of what they think and do! Even if they do not support the war, you still hate them! And now, Putin can use you as an excuse to continue invading Ukraine! Because you are now a "violent extremist", an irrational cog in the hate campaign he and his cronies have been running in order to justify the invasion that's occuring right now!

Probably too long and emotional text... But that words of "brotherhood" do make me angry

Words of irrational hate make me angry too. You cannot stop animosity you talk about by propagating it. The hatred that's going on right now is Putin's doing and it will play in his hands.

Fantastic post. Knit tie has cracked it. Please listen to this man Ukrainian Ranger, don't let yourself become what Putin wants you to be.

I don't think anyone doubts that there are Russians who do not support Putin, it's just concerning that there seem to be so few few.

[Knit tie]

Spoiler: truth and eloquence (click to show/hide)

Chechens had a long history of mutual hatred with mainland Russians, Ukrainians instead have one of brotherhood, barring, of course, the Right Sector and its Russian analogues.

Don't tell my myths, I have access to Russian internet and have seen too much hatred toward Ukrainians... I have seen modern Russian films and TV shows were all Ukrainians are bastards, cowards, traitors, idiots and so on

You mean the ones produced by Putin's propaganda machine in order to bolster nationalism and therefore his support and then justify the invasion that's occuring right now?

"Brothers", can you explain me - why Poland, Germany, Israel and many more countries offered to hospitalize those wounded at Maydan and provided treatment for free while Russia haven't even offered that?

Because Putin's propaganda department wanted to portray the Maidan activists as terrorists and criminals in order to justify the invasion that's occuring right now.

Explain me, why Poles, who, unlike Russian have real reasons to dislike guys who use red-black flags make songs that glorify the people that died at Maydan and Russian "brothers" don't?

We do. You just don't hear them on official radio because Putin's propaganda department wants to portray the Maidan activists as terrorists and criminals in order to justify the invasion that's occuring right now.

Right Sector? What do you know about the Right Sector that is coming not from Russian TV? I know that every Ukrainian killed will be named Right Sector members because no normal Ukrainian will fire in "brothers"

Stuff that's coming from english-language news sources that interviewed the Right Sector members, of course. And yes, Putin's propaganda department will definitely use the trick you described if it ever comes to an outright invasion, because Putin's propaganda department wants to portray the Maidan activists as terrorists and criminals in order to justify the invasion that's occuring right now.

You, Russians, know nothing about real Ukrainians. That Ukrainian who you believe are you brothers do not exist.  Ukrainians in your mind is nothing more than inferior version of Russians. Exactly what you always tried to create by force-assimilating us. And we are brothers only because you despise other nations more than us. Sorry, role of the least despised national group of "almost Russians" is not for us.

Congratulations! Have a "propaganda victim" point! You did it! You now hate Russians! As people! Regardless of what they think and do! Even if they do not support the war, you still hate them! And now, Putin can use you as an excuse to continue invading Ukraine! Because you are now a "violent extremist", an irrational cog in the hate campaign he and his cronies have been running in order to justify the invasion that's occuring right now!

Probably too long and emotional text... But that words of "brotherhood" do make me angry

Words of irrational hate make me angry too. You cannot stop animosity you talk about by propagating it. The hatred that's going on right now is Putin's doing and it will play in his hands.

Fantastic post. Knit tie has cracked it. Please listen to this man Ukrainian Ranger, don't let yourself become what Putin wants you to be.

I don't think anyone doubts that there are Russians who do not support Putin, it's just concerning that there seem to be so few few.

The thing is that we aren't few. A lot of people are disillusioned with Putin now and want change. This is one of the main reasons he is trying to portray himself as a saviour of the Russian people now and breed nationalism - to garner support for himself. But his grip on propaganda is strong and all the local autorities are on his payroll, so he can muffle all voices that condemn him.

[smjjames]

Spoiler: truth and eloquence (click to show/hide)

Chechens had a long history of mutual hatred with mainland Russians, Ukrainians instead have one of brotherhood, barring, of course, the Right Sector and its Russian analogues.

Don't tell my myths, I have access to Russian internet and have seen too much hatred toward Ukrainians... I have seen modern Russian films and TV shows were all Ukrainians are bastards, cowards, traitors, idiots and so on

You mean the ones produced by Putin's propaganda machine in order to bolster nationalism and therefore his support and then justify the invasion that's occuring right now?

"Brothers", can you explain me - why Poland, Germany, Israel and many more countries offered to hospitalize those wounded at Maydan and provided treatment for free while Russia haven't even offered that?

Because Putin's propaganda department wanted to portray the Maidan activists as terrorists and criminals in order to justify the invasion that's occuring right now.

Explain me, why Poles, who, unlike Russian have real reasons to dislike guys who use red-black flags make songs that glorify the people that died at Maydan and Russian "brothers" don't?

We do. You just don't hear them on official radio because Putin's propaganda department wants to portray the Maidan activists as terrorists and criminals in order to justify the invasion that's occuring right now.

Right Sector? What do you know about the Right Sector that is coming not from Russian TV? I know that every Ukrainian killed will be named Right Sector members because no normal Ukrainian will fire in "brothers"

Stuff that's coming from english-language news sources that interviewed the Right Sector members, of course. And yes, Putin's propaganda department will definitely use the trick you described if it ever comes to an outright invasion, because Putin's propaganda department wants to portray the Maidan activists as terrorists and criminals in order to justify the invasion that's occuring right now.

You, Russians, know nothing about real Ukrainians. That Ukrainian who you believe are you brothers do not exist.  Ukrainians in your mind is nothing more than inferior version of Russians. Exactly what you always tried to create by force-assimilating us. And we are brothers only because you despise other nations more than us. Sorry, role of the least despised national group of "almost Russians" is not for us.

Congratulations! Have a "propaganda victim" point! You did it! You now hate Russians! As people! Regardless of what they think and do! Even if they do not support the war, you still hate them! And now, Putin can use you as an excuse to continue invading Ukraine! Because you are now a "violent extremist", an irrational cog in the hate campaign he and his cronies have been running in order to justify the invasion that's occuring right now!

Probably too long and emotional text... But that words of "brotherhood" do make me angry

Words of irrational hate make me angry too. You cannot stop animosity you talk about by propagating it. The hatred that's going on right now is Putin's doing and it will play in his hands.

Fantastic post. Knit tie has cracked it. Please listen to this man Ukrainian Ranger, don't let yourself become what Putin wants you to be.

I don't think anyone doubts that there are Russians who do not support Putin, it's just concerning that there seem to be so few few.

The thing is that we aren't few. A lot of people are disillusioned with Putin now and want change. This is one of the main reasons he is trying to portray himself as a saviour of the Russian people now and breed nationalism - to garner support for himself. But his grip on propaganda is strong and all the local autorities are on his payroll, so he can muffle all voices that condemn him.

All the more reason to kick him out.

He went from Prime Minister to President, obviously he wants to remain in power. Don't you guys have laws and stuff that you can invoke in the case of suspicious voting or vote rigging? Or term limits even?

[Knit tie]

Spoiler: truth and eloquence (click to show/hide)

Chechens had a long history of mutual hatred with mainland Russians, Ukrainians instead have one of brotherhood, barring, of course, the Right Sector and its Russian analogues.

Don't tell my myths, I have access to Russian internet and have seen too much hatred toward Ukrainians... I have seen modern Russian films and TV shows were all Ukrainians are bastards, cowards, traitors, idiots and so on

You mean the ones produced by Putin's propaganda machine in order to bolster nationalism and therefore his support and then justify the invasion that's occuring right now?

"Brothers", can you explain me - why Poland, Germany, Israel and many more countries offered to hospitalize those wounded at Maydan and provided treatment for free while Russia haven't even offered that?

Because Putin's propaganda department wanted to portray the Maidan activists as terrorists and criminals in order to justify the invasion that's occuring right now.

Explain me, why Poles, who, unlike Russian have real reasons to dislike guys who use red-black flags make songs that glorify the people that died at Maydan and Russian "brothers" don't?

We do. You just don't hear them on official radio because Putin's propaganda department wants to portray the Maidan activists as terrorists and criminals in order to justify the invasion that's occuring right now.

Right Sector? What do you know about the Right Sector that is coming not from Russian TV? I know that every Ukrainian killed will be named Right Sector members because no normal Ukrainian will fire in "brothers"

Stuff that's coming from english-language news sources that interviewed the Right Sector members, of course. And yes, Putin's propaganda department will definitely use the trick you described if it ever comes to an outright invasion, because Putin's propaganda department wants to portray the Maidan activists as terrorists and criminals in order to justify the invasion that's occuring right now.

You, Russians, know nothing about real Ukrainians. That Ukrainian who you believe are you brothers do not exist.  Ukrainians in your mind is nothing more than inferior version of Russians. Exactly what you always tried to create by force-assimilating us. And we are brothers only because you despise other nations more than us. Sorry, role of the least despised national group of "almost Russians" is not for us.

Congratulations! Have a "propaganda victim" point! You did it! You now hate Russians! As people! Regardless of what they think and do! Even if they do not support the war, you still hate them! And now, Putin can use you as an excuse to continue invading Ukraine! Because you are now a "violent extremist", an irrational cog in the hate campaign he and his cronies have been running in order to justify the invasion that's occuring right now!

Probably too long and emotional text... But that words of "brotherhood" do make me angry

Words of irrational hate make me angry too. You cannot stop animosity you talk about by propagating it. The hatred that's going on right now is Putin's doing and it will play in his hands.

Fantastic post. Knit tie has cracked it. Please listen to this man Ukrainian Ranger, don't let yourself become what Putin wants you to be.

I don't think anyone doubts that there are Russians who do not support Putin, it's just concerning that there seem to be so few few.

The thing is that we aren't few. A lot of people are disillusioned with Putin now and want change. This is one of the main reasons he is trying to portray himself as a saviour of the Russian people now and breed nationalism - to garner support for himself. But his grip on propaganda is strong and all the local autorities are on his payroll, so he can muffle all voices that condemn him.

All the more reason to kick him out.

He went from Prime Minister to President, obviously he wants to remain in power. Don't you guys have laws and stuff that you can invoke in the case of suspicious voting or vote rigging? Or term limits even?

Sure we have. They just don't work against a guy who has the entire governmnt firmly on his side, that's all.

[Owlbread]

Oh yeah, Flemish, right. That escaped me for some reason. Also, I thought Scots was a deriverative (or branch off) of English with some Gaelic mixed in? Shows what I know.

Scots and modern English have very similar histories to Ukrainian and Russian. Like Ukrainian and Russian, at one time in the early Medieval period they were the same language but diverged as their respective nations came under the influence of other nations. There's probably as many Gaelic words in Scots as there are Turkic words in Ukrainian, so not as many as you'd think. The oldest forms of Scots have more Gaelic words because Gaelic was more dominant back then. Sheb would probably be interested to hear that there are possibly more French words in Scots than there are Gaelic. We've got loads and loads of French words, butchered beyond all recognition. We got even more after WW2 and soldiers came back from the war; my grandpa used to say stuff like "ach, that's aw san ferry ann noo", meaning "that's gone by the by". San ferry ann comes from "ça ne fait rien" meaning "it does not matter".

After Scotland was annexed by England in 1707, the ruling class in Scotland abandoned the language and over the centuries it decayed in its purity and eventually turned into a strong dialect of English with Scots as a substrate. There are some pockets of Scots across the country and it remains to be the language of the lower classes. Britain's class system didn't exactly help the Scots language. When I was a little boy I tried to get rid of Scots words I knew because I felt silly using them; like they weren't pure or whatever. I stopped saying "cushie doo" for "wood pigeon" and "slater" for "woodlouse" and "man/maun" and stuff like that. Nobody ever taught me how important they were until I was much older, (I resent the heavily Anglicised Scottish education system quite a lot) then I cherished them and listened to my grandfather as much as I possibly could. My accent became inordinately thicker as a result and, when I am not speaking to my parents, I am basically speaking a kind of diluted Scots. I would imagine that some Ukrainians today have had similar experiences.

Arguably, the only difference is that Scots is much worse off than Ukrainian because Scotland didn't become independent in the 20th century. If it had maybe Scots would have survived to a greater extent.

@Owlbread: Not one of those that doubt Russia was a colonial power. After all, they are the ones that we bought Alaska from.

Oh indeed, I'm not accusing you of being a Doubting Thomas. There are however a number of people who frequent this thread that claim that Russia was a "continental Empire" that peacefully took native peoples under their wing and protected them and civilised them and ensured that they did not lose their respective cultures, even taking these cultures on to collectively enrich the nation. There's piles of bones in the Caucasian mountains that disprove that but mentioning those will do little good.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In fact that kind of soft Ukrainiazation is ongoing right from 1991. Yeah sometimes it is sabotaged by offering boring stuff ( classical philosophical Ukrainian literature in early age is the best way to make someone hate Ukrainian language. I don't know if this is stupidity or ideological diversion) Also there are ideological wars on what should be in history books.... In Crimea due to their autonomy they had somewhat different education policy you can see the results

One thing that works great - modern Ukrainian music. Music is always an important part of culture and if song is good than it is good and it will be listened. Another thing that works great, especially among kids: Advertisements. Those must be in Ukrainian by law.

Ukraine is becoming more and more Ukrainian with every year. As long as we stay independent our culture will not die even if many Ukrainians will have Ukrainian only as the second language.

Is Eastern Ukraine becoming more Ukrainian also? Or is it just that the damage is being repaired in the West?

The thing is that we aren't few. A lot of people are disillusioned with Putin now and want change. This is one of the main reasons he is trying to portray himself as a saviour of the Russian people now and breed nationalism - to garner support for himself. But his grip on propaganda is strong and all the local autorities are on his payroll, so he can muffle all voices that condemn him.

I really hope that this is the case. We said at the start of the crisis that the reason why Putin and the rest of the oligarchy are doing what they're doing in Ukraine because they're losing their grip, but I'm also very concerned that they seem to be winning.

[Sean Mirrsen]

You know... I already stated my position as a disinterested observer. Indeed, I am an equally disinterested observer in our internal politics as well. Let's leave the Ukraine and the rest of the world aside for the moment. I know nothing of what Putin has done specifically that could earn my respect, but I equally know of nothing that Putin has done to earn such disrespect - and outright hate among other Russians. Leaving all the crap happening in the rest of the world - and especially Ukraine - aside, what has Putin done to you Russians that you hate him so much?

[misko27]

You know... I already stated my position as a disinterested observer. Indeed, I am an equally disinterested observer in our internal politics as well.

In general disinterested observers aren't so eager to claim disinterest; In fact, people who claim it are usually hiding behind the label, similar to "Just my opinion". I mean we can all state who we are and our interests with honesty right?

[Knit tie]

You know... I already stated my position as a disinterested observer. Indeed, I am an equally disinterested observer in our internal politics as well. Let's leave the Ukraine and the rest of the world aside for the moment. I know nothing of what Putin has done specifically that could earn my respect, but I equally know of nothing that Putin has done to earn such disrespect - and outright hate among other Russians. Leaving all the crap happening in the rest of the world - and especially Ukraine - aside, what has Putin done to you Russians that you hate him so much?

Starve senior citizens in remote villages. Ask these guys.

And just in general, politicians are like diapers, you need to change them often. Putin's regime is not bad per se, we've had worse, but it prevents Russia from economically growing and developing. It's a stagnation, and God knows we had enough of those in the USSR.


Random: speaking of Ukrainian modern music, I absolutely love Ocean Elzy.

[smjjames]

Now if we could apply that metaphor to those US senators and congresspeople who have had their seat for decades.

Also, it's pretty clear that Putin wants to remain in power, he went right from Prime Minister to President.