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Until I figure out how to un-close it, at least.

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So yeah.

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Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: May 01, 2014, 02:06:40 pm

[Sean Mirrsen]

And airforce... Well just look at any war of 20th century (Arab-Israeli wars, Desert Storm, Yugoslavia bombing, you name it) and see how MIGs and SUs performed against Western fighter jets. So those ~200 something F-16s Turkey has should be enough to wipe out entire Russian airfleet. At least in a defensive war with assistance of Turkish SAMs (land and shipbased)

MiGs and SUs which were sent to Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Yugoslavia and other socialist countries from the Soviet Union were downgraded export versions, whose performance was also hindered by either poor maintenance due to lack of supplies or lack of experience among pilots. Judging the fighting effectiveness of non-export versions of these aircraft in one country by the performance of downgraded export versions in other countries is a little bit incorrect, in my opinion.

To say nothing of the possibility of those F-16s having to fight over Russia-controlled land. The F-16 is such an old bird that an S-300 can almost be considered overkill. (I mean, who in their right mind sends the airforce into an all-out assault without ground-based support? United States operations don't count, I said "in their right mind")

[Guardian G.I.]

And airforce... Well just look at any war of 20th century (Arab-Israeli wars, Desert Storm, Yugoslavia bombing, you name it) and see how MIGs and SUs performed against Western fighter jets. So those ~200 something F-16s Turkey has should be enough to wipe out entire Russian airfleet. At least in a defensive war with assistance of Turkish SAMs (land and shipbased)

MiGs and SUs which were sent to Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Yugoslavia and other socialist countries from the Soviet Union were downgraded export versions, whose performance was also hindered by either poor maintenance due to lack of supplies or lack of experience among pilots. Judging the fighting effectiveness of non-export versions of these aircraft in one country by the performance of downgraded export versions in other countries is a little bit incorrect, in my opinion.

To say nothing of the possibility of those F-16s having to fight over Russia-controlled land. The F-16 is such an old bird that an S-300 can almost be considered overkill.

To be honest, MiG-29s and Su-27s are just as old as F-16s.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

F-16 got some modernizations as well as Su-27 that is now called Su-35 (Russians give totally new name to it's modernized military hardware to imitate development of new systems) and while F-16 is inferior to F-22 or F-35 it is still better than any Soviet\Russian made jets maybe with the exception of prototype PAK-FA

And that excuse with export versions is lame. Fact is simple - Eastern fighter jets failed badly against Western fighter jets

[Sergarr]

F-16 got some modernizations as well as Su-27 that is now called Su-35 (Russians give totally new name to it's modernized military hardware to imitate development of new systems) and while F-16 is inferior to F-22 or F-35 it is still better than any Soviet\Russian made jets maybe with the exception of prototype PAK-FA

And that excuse with export versions is lame. Fact is simple - Eastern fighter jets failed badly against Western fighter jets

The arabs, which were using those jets, had very little actual fighting spirit.
    I've heard stories of how egyptians used them: once have an enemy in sight, fire all missiles and catapult away.

So you could say it is Arabian fighting spirit which failed badly against an Israeli fighting spirit.

[burningpet]

F-16 got some modernizations as well as Su-27 that is now called Su-35 (Russians give totally new name to it's modernized military hardware to imitate development of new systems) and while F-16 is inferior to F-22 or F-35 it is still better than any Soviet\Russian made jets maybe with the exception of prototype PAK-FA

And that excuse with export versions is lame. Fact is simple - Eastern fighter jets failed badly against Western fighter jets

The arabs, which were using those jets, had very little actual fighting spirit.
    I've heard stories of how egyptians used them: once have an enemy in sight, fire all missiles and catapult away.

So you could say it is Arabian fighting spirit which failed badly against an Israeli fighting spirit.

Its not like russians pilots fared much better..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Rimon_20

[Ukrainian Ranger]

BTW, don't know how about Phantoms II, but Israeli Mirages III were downgraded export versions with simpler electronics

[Sinistar]

You guys talking about Balkan wars, I remembered something I heard a while ago.

So apparently a F-117 was shot down back then. There's funny anecdote I came across, not sure how much is true, but apparently the Serbians, upon hearing they downed a stealth aircraft, responded with "We are sorry, we didn't know it was supposed to be a stealth aircraft."

[mainiac]

And airforce... Well just look at any war of 20th century (Arab-Israeli wars, Desert Storm, Yugoslavia bombing, you name it) and see how MIGs and SUs performed against Western fighter jets. So those ~200 something F-16s Turkey has should be enough to wipe out entire Russian airfleet.

That's ridiculous.  F-16s are created equally but where they go from there really depends on who's paying how much to maintain them.  And if they don't have the fancy electronics to back them up or the lavish pilot training budgets that the US and Israel give them they aren't going to fight as well as US or Israeli planes.  Turkey backed away from the Eurofighter, by all accounts a top notch multi-role aircraft in favor of a cheaper portfolio of ground attack aircraft which tells you where their priorities lie.  Russia would have a radar advantage over Turkey and an F-16 without a radar advantage is giving it's pilot a real hard job.

BTW, don't know how about Phantoms II, but Israeli Mirages III were downgraded export versions with simpler electronics

Israel has a top notch weapons import and retooling industry however.  No other nation goes to comparable lengths as Israel.

[10ebbor10]

They certainly do now. But they didn't during the 1960-1970's.

[misko27]

You guys talking about Balkan wars, I remembered something I heard a while ago.

So apparently a F-117 was shot down back then. There's funny anecdote I came across, not sure how much is true, but apparently the Serbians, upon hearing they downed a stealth aircraft, responded with "We are sorry, we didn't know it was supposed to be a stealth aircraft."

I can confirm this. Interestingly, the pilot who was shot down and the man who did the shooting actually became friends later on in life. I saw a documentary about it, and saw the two guys here in New York.

[Knit tie]

You guys talking about Balkan wars, I remembered something I heard a while ago.

So apparently a F-117 was shot down back then. There's funny anecdote I came across, not sure how much is true, but apparently the Serbians, upon hearing they downed a stealth aircraft, responded with "We are sorry, we didn't know it was supposed to be a stealth aircraft."

I can confirm this. Interestingly, the pilot who was shot down and the man who did the shooting actually became friends later on in life. I saw a documentary about it, and saw the two guys here in New York.

Yes, that was really really sweet.

[Jopax]

Well all the stealth tech in the world can't really help you if the enemy isn't even bothering to shoot at you, rather, just fill your general area of the sky with obscene amounts of AA fire.

I think it's the only stealth aircraft ever to be actually shot down by enemy fire, rather than crashing on its own for one reason or another.

[misko27]

Actually the colonel lucked out by noticing a radar signature when the bomb doors opened and eyeballed it for the shot. One of the missiles' proximity fuse went off and it exploded just close enough to damage it badly.

[Jopax]

Huh, my dad always told me they got it by figuring out his flightpath and just barraging that area after it attacked :S

[misko27]

Well that isn't too far off in terms of the eyeballing. Eyeballing was how they shot planes down in WWII after all, it does work. But random shooting is only so effective, the sky is utterly huge. Wikipedia tells me the colonel personally oversaw the improvement of the radar in his squad, and had a whole bunch of spotters looking hard. But however specifically they did it, it's clear it was a unorthodox method that flew by the seat of it's pants (pun unintended) and struck big.

It's awfully cool though.