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Until I figure out how to un-close it, at least.

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So yeah.

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Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: May 01, 2014, 02:06:40 pm

[Darvi]

Fellows, I'm not going to name names but I would like to remind us all not to feed troll attempts.

But then I would starve! Okay.

[BlindKitty]

Peter I the Puny (know in Russia as the Great, God knows why)

Should I post wikipedia link or is it derogatory of some sort?

I suspect that it was sarcasm, and I did try and ask why blindkitty called Peter I that.

Actually, sorry, I was sure I've explained it, and it seems I didn't; Peter I is considered to be a great ruler in Russia, but when you actually take a look at what he did, it turns out that it wasn't all that great, and he was mostly randomly taking ideas from Western Europe. The trick is, some of the better ideas got kept around later, while most of the stupid ones were dropped, and after a while, the bad ones were forgotten, and the nickname 'Great' stuck around (as far as I can tell, almost every Russian ruler was called 'Great' when he/she was in power). That's from reading Suvorov, who is currently running a series in Polish historical magazine about rulers in Russian history who are remembered much better than they deserve (there are a lot of those; past seems to be even easier to manipulate than the present for Russian propaganda).
So, in short, Peter I was not so Great (I mean, he was quite big, but... oh darn, you know what I mean), but not only God knows why is known in Russia as that. The trick here is to try and read about what various 'Great' rulers actually did, and it turns out that quite a lot of them were, in fact, rather Puny; it's not limited to Russia by no means.

[GlyphGryph]

Now I don't usually agree with Gogis, but when I do, he acts as a voice of reason.

Is this true? I mean, I'm not saying he's never been right in your opinion, but I can't think of a time when he's ever acted in a way I would call "the voice of reason".

Also, since this has become the "gogis goes on and on" thread again, can I kindly request that we all just... ignore him? He seems to have sunk to dredging up old aguments and ad hominems, so "avoid engagement" seems like a pretty good strategy going forward, since even if he's not trolling he's certainly not arguing in good faith or attempting to engage in a real dialogue.

Edit: Ninja-ed, I guess.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

gogis, what you do is called flooding. If you want to answer a bunch of posts  fine -  Do that in one large post. Respect basic ethics of Internet communication

Ninja-edit
+1 to ignoring him.

[gogis]

Well, that's not strictly true. Most dachas around here have a "backyard", and even a "basement" - except the "backyard" is actually the main yard slash vegetable garden, and the "basement" is more often than not mostly a cellar.

Well, as a proud owner of dacha I would say that only 1% of citizens have it. And I lived there for like 0.01% of my life. My point still valid. Our city/transportation infrastucture is absolutely different to theirs and that's cultural distinction. Blame russian shitty roads.

[smjjames]

+1 to ignoring him as well (at least when he is going on like that). Like GlyphGryph said, he isn't even trying to be in the conversation, not to mention quoting stuff which we have long gone past already.

Well, that's not strictly true. Most dachas around here have a "backyard", and even a "basement" - except the "backyard" is actually the main yard slash vegetable garden, and the "basement" is more often than not mostly a cellar.

Well, as a proud owner of dacha I would say that only 1% of citizens have it. And I lived there for like 0.01% of my life. My point still valid. Our city/transportation infrastucture is absolutely different to theirs and that's cultural distinction. Blame russian shitty roads.

Russia isn't the only place with shitty and not-very-efficient public transportation systems. Ever heard of LA's traffic problems?

[gogis]

I always imagined they were shut-ins that lived in their parents basement or in small shack at the backyard they share with old and rusty tractor, with USSR banner and pictures of topless Putin hanging from the wall. It seems to fit their behaviour well.

"Basement" and "backyard" sentiments is ridiculous in ears of russians. 99% live in flats. I can't explain this for you, you can't understand it. Cultural gap of size of Atlantic ocean.

Not really, no. The Americans here can understand how we live as well as we can understand how they live.

And please stop arguing about technicalities without responding to the main point of the statement, it's getting really annoying.

I always imagined they were shut-ins that lived in their parents basement or in small shack at the backyard they share with old and rusty tractor, with USSR banner and pictures of topless Putin hanging from the wall. It seems to fit their behaviour well.

"Basement" and "backyard" sentiments is ridiculous in ears of russians. 99% live in flats. I can't explain this for you, you can't understand it. Cultural gap of size of Atlantic ocean.

Well, that's not strictly true. Most dachas around here have a "backyard", and even a "basement" - except the "backyard" is actually the main yard slash vegetable garden, and the "basement" is more often than not mostly a cellar.

Almost none of the basements in Russia are used as residential areas, and backyards are most often communal. It all boils down to us not really having a proper suburbia.

Well, they understand and in the same time they summon old stupid argument about basement? You contradict yourself. In reality when they talk about basement they talk about very different thing than we are.

Almost none of the basements in Russia are used as residential areas, and backyards are most often communal. It all boils down to us not really having a proper suburbia.

Oh, thats so much proving your POV.

[Knit tie]

Peter I the Puny (know in Russia as the Great, God knows why)

Should I post wikipedia link or is it derogatory of some sort?

I suspect that it was sarcasm, and I did try and ask why blindkitty called Peter I that.

Actually, sorry, I was sure I've explained it, and it seems I didn't; Peter I is considered to be a great ruler in Russia, but when you actually take a look at what he did, it turns out that it wasn't all that great, and he was mostly randomly taking ideas from Western Europe. The trick is, some of the better ideas got kept around later, while most of the stupid ones were dropped, and after a while, the bad ones were forgotten, and the nickname 'Great' stuck around (as far as I can tell, almost every Russian ruler was called 'Great' when he/she was in power). That's from reading Suvorov, who is currently running a series in Polish historical magazine about rulers in Russian history who are remembered much better than they deserve (there are a lot of those; past seems to be even easier to manipulate than the present for Russian propaganda).
So, in short, Peter I was not so Great (I mean, he was quite big, but... oh darn, you know what I mean), but not only God knows why is known in Russia as that. The trick here is to try and read about what various 'Great' rulers actually did, and it turns out that quite a lot of them were, in fact, rather Puny; it's not limited to Russia by no means.

While I understand your desire to disprove falsehoods, Rezun, or Suvorov, how he calls himself, is a pretty crap and biased historian. I'd recommend Klyuchevsky.

As for the "Great" title, Peter the I is mostly remembered as such because he was a very driven reformer who brought many of the western ideas to Russia and basically forced us to reach the European level of technology and development in a very short time period. Nobody says that he created those ideas himself or that he brought only the good ones. And yes, he was a pretty brutal tyrant, no remarkable personal qualities there, aside from lack of aversion to new ideas and physical labor.

[smjjames]

To answer the question, there are two kinds of people in Russia: those who buy the propaganda crap, and those who do not. They are roughly the same size, but  the side that believes the propaganda is composed primarily of un-globalized, soviet mentality having men, such as the working class, people from small towns and villages, etc., while the people who don't buy Putin's fairytales are mosty the ones who have seen or experienced the world beyond the borders of their country.

There are, of course, numerous exceptions, like some people in this very thread.

I always imagined they were shut-ins that lived in their parents basement or in small shack at the backyard they share with old and rusty tractor, with USSR banner and pictures of topless Putin hanging from the wall. It seems to fit their behaviour well.

Gogis, maybe you'll understand it better if you read the conext of the reply?

Also, why are we arguing about basements and backyards all of a sudden?

[gogis]

Seems similar to what we have in the states with the Fox news types, to be honest - except where every major station is Fox. Ugh.  Not that the other stations don't ever carry water for the administration...

echo.msk.ru
ng.ru

There is one thing you may never understand because you are westerner and narrow minded. There are Russian media which are ... unbiased. These two sources (and there alot more) that are totally unbiased and represent every end of spectrum. On "Echo" you can find videos of Remchukov and Kiselev next to each other.

It's absolute hilarity how you all cite UR sources as truth and russian sources as 100% propaganda. I laugh out loud. So narrow minded. So incredibly biased.

Now that statement is just delusonal. "Echo" and "NG" are obviously biased, but they are biased anti-Putin, not pro-him, which is why it's easy to misinterpret them as telling the complete truth while it's more often than not embellished/tarnished as appropriate.

And please do refrain from ad hominem attacks.

Echo is anti-Putin? What?
Okay, now I realised you are totally, absolutely biased. No need to worry, I am not going to read your comments anymore - you are too biased to be taken seriously.

[gogis]

Now that statement is just delusonal.

You only say that because you're a brainwashed biased wester- wait damn.

Nice try. You actually right, but you think it's funny.

[gogis]

The funny thing is, West was hoping for Russia to go western since at least Peter I the Puny (know in Russia as the Great, God knows why), and it is still what it was back then - eastern barbaria, place untouched by democracy. We all could use a Reagan now, guys. Really.

You speak of democracy like it is the best thing mankind invented.

Why do you hate freedom so much?!?

[/insinceritymode]

People tend to mashup democracy with free market and private property nowadays too much. Everytime I hear "democracy and freedom" I shake my head. Does british people feel offended or not?

Gogis, that's an argument from 12 pages ago.

Thats a weak argument. You imply I should read that thread daily? I have a job and responsibilities. And I have a right to answer to any post in that thread. Even if I read it backwards.

[smjjames]

Gogis, use the modify button, top right most button within your post, or use the quick modify one in the lower right. No need to make a new post every single time.

[gogis]

I think the difference is that Crimea, unlike Donbass, actually belonged to Russia proper, previously, rather than a country that was both Ukraine and Russia in principle. It's the difference between the car you lost in a divorce, and the scooter you later gave to your ex because you were still on speaking terms and you didn't really use it at the time. Both were at one point yours, and neither are currently yours, but you have a much better claim on one than on the other.

But isn't it the case that for a period, Crimea was a "country" that was both Crimea and Russia in principle following the Crimean War until all the Russians moved there, displacing the turks natives and such?

Fixed for ya.

[GlyphGryph]

Why would you +1 to ignoring him and then proceed to directly engage him in conversation? >_<