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Until I figure out how to un-close it, at least.

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So yeah.

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Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: May 01, 2014, 02:06:40 pm

[GlyphGryph]

Also Russia did steal Ukraines Navy. Even if the government was recognized as legitimate, they have no binding legal or moral obligation to pay these bills - the only ractor with any weight is whether paying them is practical.

[smjjames]

Also Russia did steal Ukraines Navy. Even if the government was recognized as legitimate, they have no binding legal or moral obligation to pay these bills - the only ractor with any weight is whether paying them is practical.

And blocked up the harbor. Russia is probably going to want to be the ones to clean THAT up unless they want the 'evil west' to get their hands on Russian military tech.

[Owlbread]

There we go, maybe Putin will find that one legitmate? He'd better not try and manipulate the results though

If Putin had requested that Ukraine hold an election instead of annexing Crimea and all this nonsense maybe he would be a bit more credible.

[gogis]

The Ukrainian government is a revolutionary government. It will be legitimate after the next elections are held.

It is funny, I am watching right now "Politika" with Hinstein(omg his eyes, he believe in everything he speak) as a guest and other guys. They are outright crazy. They believe south+east of Ukraine is going to sabotage election. It's becomes interesting.

[gogis]

Also Russia did steal Ukraines Navy. Even if the government was recognized as legitimate, they have no binding legal or moral obligation to pay these bills - the only ractor with any weight is whether paying them is practical.

And blocked up the harbor. Russia is probably going to want to be the ones to clean THAT up unless they want the 'evil west' to get their hands on Russian military tech.

Tom Clancy much

[Ukrainian Ranger]

speaking about military techs... There was a hysteric from Russian Foreign Ministry (to lazy to google it) regarding transferring secret information about Russian IBCMs to the third parties as we have some kind of treaty that prohibits it.

But as all treaties between Ukraine and Russia mean nothing, now... I suspect NATO got some very interesting pieces of info for developing more effective missile defense in future

[gogis]

There we go, maybe Putin will find that one legitmate? He'd better not try and manipulate the results though

If Putin had requested that Ukraine hold an election instead of annexing Crimea and all this nonsense maybe he would be a bit more credible.

Ugh, you assuming here that current goverment is legitimate to hold elections in first place.
I understand that you are naturally separatist. I am for instance, for empire earth. Legitimacy nowadays became a tool of justifiyng too much crap.

[smjjames]

Also Russia did steal Ukraines Navy. Even if the government was recognized as legitimate, they have no binding legal or moral obligation to pay these bills - the only ractor with any weight is whether paying them is practical.

And blocked up the harbor. Russia is probably going to want to be the ones to clean THAT up unless they want the 'evil west' to get their hands on Russian military tech.

Tom Clancy much

I was jokingly sarcastic, come on.

Seriously though, someone is going to have to move those scuttled ships and I don't see Ukraine as being willing to pay for it. Not sure if Crimea would pay for it either.

speaking about military techs... There was a hysteric from Russian Foreign Ministry (to lazy to google it) regarding transferring secret information about Russian IBCMs to the third parties as we have some kind of treaty that prohibits it.

But as all treaties between Ukraine and Russia mean nothing, now... I suspect NATO got some very interesting pieces of info for developing more effective missile defense in future

Was that over the scuttled ships? Though they wouldn't leave sensitive information on a ship they are going to scuttle, especially ICBM information.

I wonder if the scuttled ships were a kneejerk reaction by the captians or it was planned.

[da_nang]

There we go, maybe Putin will find that one legitmate? He'd better not try and manipulate the results though

If Putin had requested that Ukraine hold an election instead of annexing Crimea and all this nonsense maybe he would be a bit more credible.

Ugh, you assuming here that current goverment is legitimate to hold elections in first place.
I understand that you are naturally separatist. I am for instance, for empire earth. Legitimacy nowadays became a tool of justifiyng too much crap.

You're... saying that the current Ukrainian government is considered illegitimate there to be unable to hold elections? A government that overthrew the previous one. Sort of like what happened in Crimea and is kind of happening in Donetsk et al.? Then if the current illegitimate government can't hold elections, then surely the one in Crimea couldn't as well? Unless politicians are being hypocritical again and only consider legitimate those that serve their own interests.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Was that over the scuttled ships? Though they wouldn't leave sensitive information on a ship they are going to scuttle, especially ICBM information.

I wonder if the scuttled ships were a kneejerk reaction by the captians or it was planned.

Ships? Those ships are outdated piece of crap. Why do you think Russia buys Mistrals?  There are no more military secret on that 1980s crap called Russian (or Ukrainian) navy than you'll find by raising the "Bismark" from the bottom of Atlantic

No, there are different situation: Russian intercontinental ballistic missiles are made at Ukrainian factory. They are modernized at Ukrainian factory. They are serviced at Ukrainian factory. Probably we know about that missiles more than Russians themselves.

Funny thing: without Ukraine Russia will have serious problem maintaining their arsenal of nukes. Yep, they can replace Ukrainian industry but that will cost some $bln and stuff like that is not created in one day



As for scuttling ships: Russians Scuttled old retired ships to block exit for Ukrainian vessels to make stealing possible

[smjjames]

Ah, I see. Didn't know anything about the ships themselves, and I was joking around with the stealing technology thing.

Someone is still going to have to move the scuttled ships out of the shipping channels, unless the Russians did that already.

[gogis]

There we go, maybe Putin will find that one legitmate? He'd better not try and manipulate the results though

If Putin had requested that Ukraine hold an election instead of annexing Crimea and all this nonsense maybe he would be a bit more credible.

Ugh, you assuming here that current goverment is legitimate to hold elections in first place.
I understand that you are naturally separatist. I am for instance, for empire earth. Legitimacy nowadays became a tool of justifiyng too much crap.

You're... saying that the current Ukrainian government is considered illegitimate there to be unable to hold elections? A government that overthrew the previous one. Sort of like what happened in Crimea and is kind of happening in Donetsk et al.? Then if the current illegitimate government can't hold elections, then surely the one in Crimea couldn't as well? Unless politicians are being hypocritical again and only consider legitimate those that serve their own interests.

No, they seriously talk that elections is going to be compromised because east-south is going to abstain that whole thing. Not enough electorate... Go figure.

[gogis]

No, there are different situation: Russian intercontinental ballistic missiles are made at Ukrainian factory. They are modernized at Ukrainian factory. They are serviced at Ukrainian factory. Probably we know about that missiles more than Russians themselves.

I am not going to call your bluff here because you are silly. I am already stated in previous thread that I am originally from Votkinsk and if you google it you will understand why I call you silly. Don't spew bullshit even if you can. Those naive westerners may believe you, but I will call your bluff any time. Lies is a lies, no matter how you wrap it.

[smjjames]

In theory that could work, but you're still going to have some people voting, even if it's only 5% of the east and south.

[gogis]

In theory that could work, but you're still going to have some people voting, even if it's only 5% of the east and south.

I don't know what minimum limit in constitution or whatever. Better ask UR. Not like I believe this scenario is going to happen. Whatever they talk, I believe quote is going to be fulfilled and elections is going to happen