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Until I figure out how to un-close it, at least.

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So yeah.

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Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: May 01, 2014, 02:06:40 pm

[XXSockXX]

Some more info about sniper attacks:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=97a_1397122630
http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/maidan-schuesse102.html

The title of the liveleak article is flat out wrong and misleading, the report doesn't blame the opposition.

The report doubts the offical version that it was only Berkut / Yanukovych's people who fired shots, citing recorded audio from government snipers, and it cites people blaming the Ukrainian prosecution to be one-sided. It questions the identity of the sniper(s)? that were shooting from the Hotel Ukraina, but it does not make any claims as to their identity.

[RedKing]

The kicker?  If the EU agrees to those conditions.

Gee, a country being pushed to agree to something that two larger forces are negotiating on their behalf?

*cough* Sudetenland *cough*

[gogis]

UR, what you think about this
http://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4712712 (I know you can register and torrent it)

I really liked attitude of a short haired guy who said "we dont' want to be a part of Russia, even if I am Russian I still want to be in Ukraine, but I don't want Kiev to dictate things". He said that about federalisation thingie. Whats wrong with that line of thinking? I absolutely hate idea about civil war in Ukraine, but this could happen. You can't deny the fact that your society is torn right now, it would be outright lie.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

First, please don't post links to torrent sites here.

Second, Why they never cared that Kiev dictates things for the last two decades? Oh, I know, that because THEY dictated

Third, we have more than five months since the start of Maydan, and more than a month since the  foreign invasion started and no civil war, yet. Stop scaring us with it

Fourth, society isn't torn. It is more united than it ever was. People tend to unite when external treat is present. The fifth column still exist but they lost support of neutrals with "Russia is a friend" mentality. Few to none Ukrainian patriots  believe in that nonsense now

[smjjames]

5th column? Like Nazi 5th column?

I may be misunderstanding or misinterpreting something here.

[gogis]

First, please don't post links to torrent sites here.

Second, Why they never cared that Kiev dictates things for the last two decades? Oh, I know, that because THEY dictated

It's was a record of talk show, and while it's was produced in Russia it explored both sides and showed real ukrainians with opinions. It's also has Remchukov and Gordon, whose are very critical to goverment in general and smart overall individuals. It's highly relevant. And what about this being a torrent link? It's a protocol of delivering a data, not some sort of tainted stuff.

Second point. There is a reason when you don't care about some country and then you suddenly start to care when some minority make the coup and start to voice things which is not the will of majority, hence - not a democracy.

Third, we have more than five months since the start of Maydan, and more than a month since the  foreign invasion started and no civil war, yet. Stop scaring us with it

Fourth, society isn't torn. It is more united than it ever was. People tend to unite when external treat is present. The fifth column still exist but they lost support of neutrals with "Russia is a friend" mentality. Few to none Ukrainian patriots  believe in that nonsense now

It isn't torn? Thats funny. I discussed this topic with my fellow ukrainian friends. And I clearly see they ARE thorn and divided. What are you smoking? It's undeniable that there are ukrainians not sharing maidan values. Oh wait, my friends not in ukraine. They are traitors by your standards then?

[Sheb]

A fifth column just refer to any group of cooperators and partisans of an enemy power. The first use is actually by a nationalist general who was attacking Madrid with 4 columns of troops during the Civil War and was talking of a 5th column inside the city.

[smjjames]

Civil war usually implies all out fighting, 'Societal turmoil' would be a better term to describe what is going on.

True, people tend to unite when an external threat is present, but how united is Ukraine? I don't know enouugh about the internal going ons to answer that. Aside from the whole pro-EU and pro-Russia division. Opinions are going to span the whole spectrum anyway.

A fifth column just refer to any group of cooperators and partisans of an enemy power. The first use is actually by a nationalist general who was attacking Madrid with 4 columns of troops during the Civil War and was talking of a 5th column inside the city.

Thanks for the clarification. Yeah I could have looked at wiki, but I associated it with the nazis for some reason. Maybe because I first heard the term being used in that context.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

It isn't torn? Thats funny. I discussed this topic with my fellow ukrainian friends. And I clearly see they ARE thorn and divided. What are you smoking? It's undeniable that there are ukrainians not sharing maidan values. Oh wait, my friends not in ukraine. They are traitors by your standards then?

Ukrainian society is somewhat torn right from 1991. What I am saying - it is less torn than it was before Russian actions.

As for traitors... I am not a Russian to call people traitors for their political views or place of residency . They may live anywhere and believe in anything including that Maydan was a bad thing or that Putin is the greatest ruler ever or that Ukrainian nation doesn't exist at all.
Unconstitutional actions against territorial integrity is a treason. It is a crime. And those who act like that should go to the jail. Not expect that anyone will treat them like political opposition

[gogis]

It isn't torn? Thats funny. I discussed this topic with my fellow ukrainian friends. And I clearly see they ARE thorn and divided. What are you smoking? It's undeniable that there are ukrainians not sharing maidan values. Oh wait, my friends not in ukraine. They are traitors by your standards then?

Ukrainian society is somewhat torn right from 1991. What I am saying - it is less torn than it was before Russian actions.

As for traitors... I am not a Russian to call people traitors for their political views or place of residency . They may live anywhere and believe in anything including that Maydan was a bad thing or that Putin is the greatest ruler ever or that Ukrainian nation doesn't exist at all.
Unconstitutional actions against territorial integrity is a treason. It is a crime. And those who act like that should go to the jail. Not expect that anyone will treat them like political opposition

You tell me it's not torn, then it's somewhat torn... I am lost here. Infact I had not very pleasant conversations with 3 of my co-or-past-coworkers. And they was divided exactly 3-way. One said "I don't care", another was pro-Ukraine and he voicing it in vkontakte. And last one was, surprisingly, pro-Russian and voicing it as well. How should I react on any of your words, if you such a dead serious you are right?

People have opinions. I am liberal democrat, I am pro choice and anti Putin in general(I am not that sure anymore about 'anti'), but I know for sure that our sysadmin on my current job is a communist. I saw his vkontakte page. It's crazy, I mean he is abit overboard with that shit. Do we have any problems? Nah, nobody talks politics at work. Literally. My most closest friend is what I call 'христанутый на всю голову', devote orthodox christian. I am devout atheist. We are still closest friends.

You, hating Russia, voicing every ukrainian opinion as a set in stone YOUR opinion is just abnormal, crazy anomaly in my eyes. But thats okay. It's a plurality after all.

[smjjames]

Well, as I said, the opinions are going to span the whole spectrum and gogis's three Ukranian friends are just on widely separated parts of the spectrum.

The thing though is that those are just the opinions of three people. How do the opinions split among the rest of the 44.5 million Ukranian citizens (ethnic Ukranian or not) and the I-don't-know-how-many that live abroad?

[GlyphGryph]

Is Gogis talking about the opinions of "Russians he knows" as somehow being indicative of "Ukranians in Ukraine on the whole" again?

[gogis]

Well, as I said, the opinions are going to span the whole spectrum and gogis's three Ukranian friends are just on widely separated parts of the spectrum.

The thing though is that those are just the opinions of three people. How do the opinions split among the rest of the 44.5 million Ukranian citizens (ethnic Ukranian or not) and the I-don't-know-how-many that live abroad?

It depends on how far west it's going in Ukraine. And that's real. But it's stupid for me to try anything to prove to here auditory because it's absurdly biased. You know, when I read this eastern politics thread I roll my eyes so much often it's not funny. It's source of so much misinformation and general hatred towards russia that I start to doubt if it's even real. To add insult to injury there are guys from Russia who agree on everything writed and now I somehow looks like a Putin agent. You know, I want to post links with what Kissinger or Cohen writes and then I suddenly realise that there is absolutely zero point to do that. Only trolling is what I can really do here meaningfully. Most recent example is how two guys joking about 96% Crimea vote rate and crimeans population. I was like "you fucking idiots, crimeans decided to not participate in referendum, get your facts straight", then I closed web page because it's was a stupid duty to correct.

[Sheb]

Except the Crimean government itself claimed there was high participation even amongst Crimean Tatars and Ukrainians.

[gogis]

Is Gogis talking about the opinions of "Russians he knows" as somehow being indicative of "Ukranians in Ukraine on the whole" again?

I talked about unkrainian citizens residing in Moscow atm, should I provide more specifics so you believe?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow#Demographics

and these numbers lie, btw. One of this friends is not registered, so not in that list.