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Until I figure out how to un-close it, at least.
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Voting closed: May 01, 2014, 02:06:40 pm


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Author Topic: Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: On Lockdown Due to Excessive Politicking  (Read 156113 times)

Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Post - USSR and other Eastern European Politics Thread
« Reply #675 on: April 15, 2014, 08:22:46 am »

Send wave after wave of men at them until they reach their kill limit and shut down?
Ukraine is not Russia...
At least I hope that our generals aren't fans of that tactics
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Knit tie

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Re: Post - USSR and other Eastern European Politics Thread
« Reply #676 on: April 15, 2014, 08:37:32 am »

Russian Army? Nothing. The police force would be likely to cordon off areas, and a special ops group or three would be dispatched to monitor the situation and prevent escalation, but honestly, I think that would be it. Contrary to your image of the ideal patriotic soldier, most of our armed forces - and, evidently, your armed forces - seem to be at least decent enough human beings that discharging high-caliber automatic firearms into a crowd of unarmed anyone-s is pretty close to the bottom on their scale of acceptable responses.

Haven't the Russian security people solved several such problems with Chechnyans using the more dakka approach?  An incident where they gassed hostages and terrorists alike and killed a bunch of hostages in a theatre springs to mind.
Yeah, that one's pretty notorious. The plan was sound, the problem was that there were no medical teams on standby. Many unconscious people suffocated due to the haste with which the building had to be cleared - they were in some cases literally piled up as they were taken out of the theater. So yeah, they are not without their failings, but they are not cruel enough to knowingly kill civilians - the whole idea of that plan was to take everyone out, so that civilians could not be used as shields. The russian phrase that describes it best is "Хотели как лучше, а получилось как всегда" (lit. "wanted to do what's better, ended up doing as usual" - a good plan ending up going badly).
Yes, that one incident was a brutal fuck-up, but it was a fuck-up nevertheless, not a deliberate killing of hostages.

As for the soldiers in Chechnya, they wanted to gun down the locals there little more than the American soldiers wanted to gun down the locals in Vietnam and Iraq, but ended up doing that anyway because they were ordered to by the Soviet-style kill-happy government, and then mutual killings started and mutual hate sprung up.

In general, when talking about Ukrainian and Russian soldiers, I would like to refer you to this excellent quote by GlyphGryph:
There are plenty of decent people in our government, but a small group of power-hogging tyrants has all the power, yes.

The decent people that successfully remain in government tend to be those of the sort that don't rock the boat, for obvious reasons. Even the soviets and fascists of World War II counted many decent people among their ranks. Sometimes you're choice is to do what good you can within a broken system, to do nothing, or to be destroyed for opposing it.

That's true the world over, though - many terrible organizations, many organizations run by selfish, greedy, corrupt individuals, function only because of the decent individuals who hold them up, who often would rather not but have no realistic choice when they have people depending upon them and where refusal does not disrupt the system but only disempowers the individual.

This isn't really a commentary on on Russia in the slightest, just on the idea that a bad organization run by bad people doesn't necessarily mean it's made of said bad people, and that it usually isn't.
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Sheb

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Re: Post - USSR and other Eastern European Politics Thread
« Reply #677 on: April 15, 2014, 08:39:22 am »

UR, do you think Yanukovitch should just have gunned down the whole of Maidan then? Seriously? Violence should be avoided whenever possible.
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da_nang

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Re: Post - USSR and other Eastern European Politics Thread
« Reply #678 on: April 15, 2014, 08:44:44 am »

It is risky... Terrorists have newest Russian RPG-30s , so even tanks is not a good option. Iglas(Russian hand-held SAMs) is likely too, so helicopters is not a  safe option, either.
How about artillery?
Well, I wouldn't call artillery a precise weapon, even today. So trying to bombard the building with terrorist inside without blowing up everything around might be somewhat problematic.
The Archer Artillery System is rather precise. Unfortunately, it's rather new and Ukraine doesn't have one.

It appears these were posted by the Dean at CSMU on his facebook page.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Post - USSR and other Eastern European Politics Thread
« Reply #679 on: April 15, 2014, 08:46:08 am »

UR, do you think Yanukovitch should just have gunned down the whole of Maidan then? Seriously? Violence should be avoided whenever possible.
Maidan didn't have machine guns.
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Sheb

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Re: Post - USSR and other Eastern European Politics Thread
« Reply #680 on: April 15, 2014, 08:47:31 am »

He was advocating shooting unarmed civilians blocking a tank.
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Zangi

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Re: Post - USSR and other Eastern European Politics Thread
« Reply #681 on: April 15, 2014, 08:50:10 am »

I just can't really grasp how armed men can take over buildings without getting bombarded to death, assuming re-taking the buildings by foot is too risky.
It is risky... Terrorists have newest Russian RPG-30s , so even tanks is not a good option. Iglas(Russian hand-held SAMs) is likely too, so helicopters is not a  safe option, either.

I repeat: Unfortunately Ukrainian armed forces are not anything like Israeli. Not equipped enough, not trained enough, have no battle experience and doesn't have right mentality to kill enemies.

I'm sure the west will look upon Ukraine with adoring eyes after you start gunning down unarmed people.  Of course, you can always try to plant weapons on em and say they were attacking.
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da_nang

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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Post - USSR and other Eastern European Politics Thread
« Reply #683 on: April 15, 2014, 08:56:40 am »

Sheb, Army during a war is one thing and police during protests is another

Besides I am advocating - First threaten to fire, then warning shots, then... Tank commander didn't take even the first two steps. Even bluffing would most likely work
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smjjames

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Re: Post - USSR and other Eastern European Politics Thread
« Reply #684 on: April 15, 2014, 08:57:58 am »

The thing is that Ukranian troops are badly inexperienced. Their training may be ok, but as UR said, they haven't had to fight a war or right terrorists before.

He was advocating shooting unarmed civilians blocking a tank.

I think I also heard about there being snipers during the Maidan protests.
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Sergarr

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Re: Post - USSR and other Eastern European Politics Thread
« Reply #685 on: April 15, 2014, 09:04:53 am »

Sheb, Army during a war is one thing and police during protests is another

Besides I am advocating - First threaten to fire, then warning shots, then... Tank commander didn't take even the first two steps. Even bluffing would most likely work
"The tank taking warning shots at unarmed civilians" would make some great headlines in the Russian (and the world) media.

Really, this would be pretty much the worst course of action. You would be practically inviting Russian direct intervention and worldwide condemnation.
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smjjames

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Re: Post - USSR and other Eastern European Politics Thread
« Reply #686 on: April 15, 2014, 09:09:27 am »

Sheb, Army during a war is one thing and police during protests is another

Besides I am advocating - First threaten to fire, then warning shots, then... Tank commander didn't take even the first two steps. Even bluffing would most likely work
"The tank taking warning shots at unarmed civilians" would make some great headlines in the Russian (and the world) media.

Really, this would be pretty much the worst course of action. You would be practically inviting Russian direct intervention and worldwide condemnation.

Sounds like Ukraine is stuck between a rock and a hard place, or perhaps, damned if you do, damned if you don't.
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Helgoland

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Re: Post - USSR and other Eastern European Politics Thread
« Reply #687 on: April 15, 2014, 09:12:23 am »

How about "I'm gonna start rolling forward now"? With plenty of time for them to get away...
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Zangi

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Re: Post - USSR and other Eastern European Politics Thread
« Reply #688 on: April 15, 2014, 09:16:45 am »

How about "I'm gonna start rolling forward now"? With plenty of time for them to get away...
Someone is going to have to take responsibility...
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Sergarr

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Re: Post - USSR and other Eastern European Politics Thread
« Reply #689 on: April 15, 2014, 09:16:54 am »

Have another video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwBKK1dvAiM
Should be pretty self explaining.

Democracy!
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