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Poll

Poll's closed.

Until I figure out how to un-close it, at least.
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So yeah.
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Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: May 01, 2014, 02:06:40 pm


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Author Topic: Re: !!Post - USSR Politics Thread!!: On Lockdown Due to Excessive Politicking  (Read 156098 times)

GlyphGryph

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Re: Post - USSR and other Eastern European Politics Thread
« Reply #570 on: April 14, 2014, 10:32:20 am »

But the "Us" vs "Them" mentality exists in reality! The Ukrainian Ranger embodies that concept!
Moreover, it is frecking natural.
It's anything but natural. Even if it were, is that some sort of defense? Plenty of terrible things are natural - the entire point of society is to overcome that which is natural and replace it with a superior alternative.
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Knit tie

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Re: Post - USSR and other Eastern European Politics Thread
« Reply #571 on: April 14, 2014, 10:34:52 am »

I think what P-man is trying to say, Owlie, is that not all of the Russian economy is run by corrupt megacorporations. It's really only the oil and the media that are Putin's lapdogs and buddies, the rest doesn't really want to cooperate with him, but has to.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Post - USSR and other Eastern European Politics Thread
« Reply #572 on: April 14, 2014, 10:36:17 am »

I don't think he's arguing the economy is, but rather that the government is.
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Knit tie

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Re: Post - USSR and other Eastern European Politics Thread
« Reply #573 on: April 14, 2014, 10:37:59 am »

There are plenty of decent people in our government, but a small group of power-hogging tyrants has all the power, yes.
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Owlbread

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Re: Post - USSR and other Eastern European Politics Thread
« Reply #574 on: April 14, 2014, 10:39:41 am »

I think what P-man is trying to say, Owlie, is that not all of the Russian economy is run by corrupt megacorporations. It's really only the oil and the media that are Putin's lapdogs and buddies, the rest doesn't really want to cooperate with him, but has to.

I understand. In that case when I talk about the corporations in the Russian economy that Putin is ruling the country for, we can reduce that down to the "oil companies" in Russia and their respective leaders. I just wasn't sure if there were other businessmen that I hadn't heard about. My understanding was that the oligarchy's dealings went deeper than just oil and extended into stuff like mineral exploitation out in Siberia.

But I'm pretty sure as GlyphGryph said Comrade P was arguing that there isn't a mega-corrupt oligarchy ruling Russia.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 10:42:27 am by Owlbread »
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misko27

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Re: Post - USSR and other Eastern European Politics Thread
« Reply #575 on: April 14, 2014, 10:45:16 am »

Seriously, what's up with that attitude? I've seen it so many times, it's getting tiring how those guys believe they can deceive us.
Here. Right here. Thinking one side is a homogenous group is the literal definition of "Us vs. Them". Trying
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smjjames

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Re: Post - USSR and other Eastern European Politics Thread
« Reply #576 on: April 14, 2014, 10:45:50 am »

There are plenty of decent people in our government, but a small group of power-hogging tyrants has all the power, yes.

Then why did all but one of your Duma congressmen (not sure what the correct term is for one serving in the Duma) vote for annexing Crimea? I can see it being a combination of not wanting to get beat up by Putins thugs if they disagree and getting swept up in Russian nationalism though.

I know the Duma is closer to a parliament than congress, but what do you call them? Parliamentarians?
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mainiac

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Re: Post - USSR and other Eastern European Politics Thread
« Reply #577 on: April 14, 2014, 10:50:26 am »

You try to use emotions to make others believe what you say. You don't use logic. Therefore, you do not try to have an actual argument, with logical statements, backed up with citations from reliable sources.

Seriously, what's up with that attitude? I've seen it so many times, it's getting tiring how those guys believe they can deceive us.

I'm not with you so I'm against you?
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Knit tie

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Re: Post - USSR and other Eastern European Politics Thread
« Reply #578 on: April 14, 2014, 10:59:01 am »

There are plenty of decent people in our government, but a small group of power-hogging tyrants has all the power, yes.

Then why did all but one of your Duma congressmen (not sure what the correct term is for one serving in the Duma) vote for annexing Crimea? I can see it being a combination of not wanting to get beat up by Putins thugs if they disagree and getting swept up in Russian nationalism though.

I know the Duma is closer to a parliament than congress, but what do you call them? Parliamentarians?
A lot of Russians and Crimeans genuinely think that Crimea needed to be annexed because the new government was hostile to it, and they do have some convincing arguments to back up that position, so the Duma members (that's what they are called, fancy names are for capitalist pigdogs) probably thought that that was the right and moral thing to do.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 11:00:40 am by Knit tie »
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Helgoland

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Re: Post - USSR and other Eastern European Politics Thread
« Reply #579 on: April 14, 2014, 11:10:48 am »

Parliamentarians?
Yup. At least they're called that in Germany.
If you want to make 100% sure, just call them representatives.
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Sergarr

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Re: Post - USSR and other Eastern European Politics Thread
« Reply #580 on: April 14, 2014, 11:13:10 am »

You try to use emotions to make others believe what you say. You don't use logic. Therefore, you do not try to have an actual argument, with logical statements, backed up with citations from reliable sources.

Seriously, what's up with that attitude? I've seen it so many times, it's getting tiring how those guys believe they can deceive us.

I'm not with you so I'm against you?
Emotionally - yes.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Post - USSR and other Eastern European Politics Thread
« Reply #581 on: April 14, 2014, 11:16:02 am »

There are plenty of decent people in our government, but a small group of power-hogging tyrants has all the power, yes.

The decent people that successfully remain in government tend to be those of the sort that don't rock the boat, for obvious reasons. Even the soviets and fascists of World War II counted many decent people among their ranks. Sometimes you're choice is to do what good you can within a broken system, to do nothing, or to be destroyed for opposing it.

That's true the world over, though - many terrible organizations, many organizations run by selfish, greedy, corrupt individuals, function only because of the decent individuals who hold them up, who often would rather not but have no realistic choice when they have people depending upon them and where refusal does not disrupt the system but only disempowers the individual.

This isn't really a commentary on on Russia in the slightest, just on the idea that a bad organization run by bad people doesn't necessarily mean it's made of said bad people, and that it usually isn't.
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Sinistar

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Re: Post - USSR and other Eastern European Politics Thread
« Reply #582 on: April 14, 2014, 11:39:09 am »

Using combat helicopters on cities? NOT a good idea.

Also, have a video for ya: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdH8OEpDY0k

If that is your army...
IMHO combat helicopters are ideal for urban warfare...

But seriously - anyone cares to translate or at least give a rough idea of what are the people in this video talking about? What rationale did the civilians use to make soldiers disarm? And there was the police - why did they put rifles in the police car?
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Descan

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Re: Post - USSR and other Eastern European Politics Thread
« Reply #584 on: April 14, 2014, 11:48:32 am »

I think Ukrainian Ranger has reason to be pessimistic. Putin has won the day, without question.


I apologise for the enormous rant but this was my attempt at getting my thoughts together. I hope it seemed somewhat coherent.

But the "Us" vs "Them" mentality exists in reality! The Ukrainian Ranger embodies that concept!

Moreover, it is frecking natural.
So is cyanide. It's still poison.
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