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Until I figure out how to un-close it, at least.

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So yeah.

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Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: May 01, 2014, 02:06:40 pm

[Xeron]

Eastern European Union man.We should stop being pushed by Russia/ the West and instead pool our resources together.We'll just end up under Russia again if we leave it to the West, because they'd be willing to sacrifice us to avoid other issues with Russia.And if Putin's ambitions are more than Crimea, well things might end up like that anyway.

Kinda ironic to blame this on being too close to Europe when the last Ukrainian administration took the approach of pushing Europe away.

I wasn't blaming this on Europe.What i'm saying is that no matter what happens, Europe will still treat us as expendable.Discrimination against Eastern Europeans is common in Western European states, specifically France, Italy, Britain and Germany.We've always been used as a buffer zone against Russia/The Ottoman Empire and milked for our resources.We need to face how things are and throw away our rather hostile history with each others (Eastern European countries that is) and stand up for ourselves for once.

[mainiac]

I wasn't blaming this on Europe.What i'm saying is that no matter what happens, Europe will still treat us as expendable.

The continued independence of the Baltic states from Russia would indicate otherwise.  Given the choice between very weak states that are NATO members and a very strong state that was not, Putin thought the strong state was the easier target.

[Helgoland]

@Eastern Europe seen as sacrifice-able: I'm German, and - if necessary - I'd gladly fight and die for the Eastern European countries. And while a majority of the Western European youth probably think differently, I believe that there's a growing sense of all of Europe belonging together. An Eastern European 'regionalism' would destroy that slow development.
Ultimately, we'll need to solve all probems at the level best suited to it: Global problems at the global level, continental ones at the continental one, and national ones within the nation-state. The EU is the first step in that direction; and while reform is certainly needed, abandoning this project would be a grave step backwards.

[Aeax]

Ptw

I don't really have much to add to the conversation, but I find what all you guys post is very interesting to read.

[Sergarr]

@Eastern Europe seen as sacrifice-able: I'm German, and - if necessary - I'd gladly fight and die for the Eastern European countries. And while a majority of the Western European youth probably think differently, I believe that there's a growing sense of all of Europe belonging together. An Eastern European 'regionalism' would destroy that slow development.
Ultimately, we'll need to solve all probems at the level best suited to it: Global problems at the global level, continental ones at the continental one, and national ones within the nation-state. The EU is the first step in that direction; and while reform is certainly needed, abandoning this project would be a grave step backwards.

What do you think about Greece? Do you want to give them money so they can live in luxury a few more years?

[Eagle_eye]

Just like the rest of the world, the only Greeks living in luxury are the wealthy elites.

[10ebbor10]

Just like the rest of the world, the only Greeks living in luxury are the wealthy elites.

The only Greeks living in decent conditions are also the wealthy elites. The Trojka is very thourough.

[Xeron]

@Eastern Europe seen as sacrifice-able: I'm German, and - if necessary - I'd gladly fight and die for the Eastern European countries. And while a majority of the Western European youth probably think differently, I believe that there's a growing sense of all of Europe belonging together.

A noble sentiment, my friend but sadly it is not a sentiment shared by the majority and your politicians.As for Eastern European regionalism destroying what is built, what exactly is there being built ?We've been trying to get into the Schengen Space and look how's that going.When the British Government lifted the work restrictions on Bulgarians and Romanians everyone went apeshit and thought immigrants were invading Britain to steal jobs.

By forming a Eastern European Union you make one step towards uniting this very divided area of Europe.Many intense rivalries between the various neighbors still exist.
About Greece, giving them money just delayed things. What happened to Greece was inevitable by the point the EU tried to help them.

[Darvi]

We've been trying to get into the Schengen Space

Good gods why would you want to do that. The place's only 10km² big and we've already got half of Europe in there.

[Helgoland]

A noble sentiment, my friend but sadly it is not a sentiment shared by the majority and your politicians.As for Eastern European regionalism destroying what is built, what exactly is there being built ?We've been trying to get into the Schengen Space and look how's that going.When the British Government lifted the work restrictions on Bulgarians and Romanians everyone went apeshit and thought immigrants were invading Britain to steal jobs.

We've got freedom of movement, freedom of trade, a single currency, supernational jurisdiction, a space agency, etc etc. Sure, there's much left to do, but there's no denying that there's been great progress. And about the xenophobia: These things die down. Orwell mentioned in his letters that the English were very afraid of the Poles taking their jobs - that was in 1945, and nobody's talking about that anymore. It'll be the same here. (And AFAIK most of Eastern Europe is already in the Schengen area... Where are you from?)

Greece: That country has massive structural problems: Corruption, a bloated administration, the rich not paying taxes...  Europe isn't the cause of all the pain experienced by the Greek. It might have been handled better, but I wouldn't say it's been handled badly - had the EU not gotten involved, it would likely have gotten worse - and the crisis spread to other countries.

Ukraine stuff: Who thinks reports about Russia reducing its troops on the border are correct?

[Xeron]

Oh, you misunderstand me, i'm not blaming Europe for Greece, i'm just saying that throwing money at the problem just wasn't a viable solution.I am from Romania, so obviously i am a vampire gypsy thief criminal.

[Owlbread]

Oh, you misunderstand me, i'm not blaming Europe for Greece, i'm just saying that throwing money at the problem just wasn't a viable solution.I am from Romania, so obviously i am a vampire gypsy thief criminal.

Out of curiosity Xeron, how do you feel about the issue with the Szekely people in Transylvania?

[Xeron]

Oh, you misunderstand me, i'm not blaming Europe for Greece, i'm just saying that throwing money at the problem just wasn't a viable solution.I am from Romania, so obviously i am a vampire gypsy thief criminal.

Out of curiosity Xeron, how do you feel about the issue with the Szekely people in Transylvania?

While their desire for autonomy is understandable, they are being given fair treatment, what with everything in Hungarian too, including the education.But i could ask you Owlbread, what do you make of the Northern Bukovina and Besserabia situations ?

[Owlbread]

While their desire for autonomy is understandable, they are being given fair treatment, what with everything in Hungarian too, including the education.

See, there's the thing. I met a Szekely fellow once and he told me some pretty heart breaking stories of how their culture is stifled by Romanian government policy. Unfortunately I can't remember exactly what he said (it was about 4 years ago and I spoke to him only once) but I seem to recall something about their education most emphatically not being in Hungarian; that the language of the classroom had to be Romanian. I am probably quite wrong about that.

But i could ask you Owlbread, what do you make of the Northern Bukovina and Besserabia situations ?

I assume you refer to Northern Bukovina in Ukraine and the Moldovan situation? I think the all the people of Northern Bukovina and Transcarpathia, regardless of their ethnic group, should have their right of national self determination respected. They should be entitled to education in their own native language.

As for Bessarabia, I assume you mean Moldova but again there I honestly don't know - Moldova is historically Romanian but it's been an independent and semi-independent state for most of the last millennium and they seem to do alright out of that; despite their national poverty I think they're in a better position to fight that right now as an independent state. I think it's up to them, though obviously I would like to see an independent Gagauzia.

[BlindKitty]

A noble sentiment, my friend but sadly it is not a sentiment shared by the majority and your politicians.As for Eastern European regionalism destroying what is built, what exactly is there being built ?We've been trying to get into the Schengen Space and look how's that going.When the British Government lifted the work restrictions on Bulgarians and Romanians everyone went apeshit and thought immigrants were invading Britain to steal jobs.

We've got freedom of movement, freedom of trade, a single currency, supernational jurisdiction, a space agency, etc etc. Sure, there's much left to do, but there's no denying that there's been great progress. And about the xenophobia: These things die down. Orwell mentioned in his letters that the English were very afraid of the Poles taking their jobs - that was in 1945, and nobody's talking about that anymore. It'll be the same here. (And AFAIK most of Eastern Europe is already in the Schengen area... Where are you from?)

You are assuming here that single currency, supernational jurisdiction, a space agency etc. are good thinks (note that I'm not arguing about freedom of movement/trade), which is non-obvious, for one thing, and not unrealistic to implement in Eastern European Union, for another (well, maybe it would be hard to pull off another space agency, but we could have one shared by WEU and EEU (Western and Eastern European Unions), if we so desire, that's the smallest problem). Single currency is actually harmful to most countries that have it (have you heard about optimal currency region? I'm not sure about the English name, much less German, I'm re-translating it from Polish name here), supernational jurisdiction is... Controversial, from time to time, and so on. For example, current policy about agriculture is seriously wrong in my opinion. And the structural funds... Look below.

Greece: That country has massive structural problems: Corruption, a bloated administration, the rich not paying taxes...  Europe isn't the cause of all the pain experienced by the Greek. It might have been handled better, but I wouldn't say it's been handled badly - had the EU not gotten involved, it would likely have gotten worse - and the crisis spread to other countries.

Well, I'm not sure if lack of EU involvement would make matters turn worse, but that's debatable, and likely not here. That said, EU has certainly make a lot to aggravate problems: it has ignored blatant lies from Greece regarding it's financial situation (for years at that), and structural funds (the money for roads and stuff, you know what I mean) are actually often making corruption and disregard for the law much worse, because of their nature (I've recently read an article about that, but it was in Polish, so there is no sense in trying to find a link - it was in old-school paper magazine - it's quite a read actually, but to put long story short, when there is a sudden influx of money in the not-too-good system, it is not a good way to make it work better. It is also less controlled than the domestic funds, as the EU officials are further away and know less about what goes on in any particular country. I'm certainly not saying that they are inherently bad, but there might be more to them than meets the eye, and it should be kept in mind at all times when discussing EU involvement in various countries.
Case in point - after pumping some crazy amounts of money into innovations in Poland, the amount of innovations actually dropped.

Ukraine stuff: Who thinks reports about Russia reducing its troops on the border are correct?

I don't think so. I'd say that even if somebody is moving away from the border, it is to make room for other soldiers. But I've nothing to either prove that, or prove otherwise, so...