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Current one, unchanged.

+4 AS and +5 DMG when moving 4 spaces or more.

+2 AS and +3 DMG on Player Phase, with additional +2 AS and +2 DMG when moving 4 spaces or more.

+1 AS and +1.5 DMG for each space moved up to 4 spaces.

Current one but AS bonus is converted to DR from the end of the Player Phase until the next one.

I don't know but I want to see the results.

[Rolepgeek]

Alright, seems like the non-numerical part of the spy has come to concensus, though personally I think trapping doesn't fit that well with spies(decoys, yes, traps, not so much), and I think Master Spies having a 'SURPRISE!' ability with teleporting once per map(it's fairly similar to the ability they already have) would be better, but whatever.

Most of the reason I don't think it fits, by the way, is that spies seem like they're meant to be offensive, what with being scouts and info-gatherers, while traps are defensive. Which would mean that in Infiltration missions...yeah.

Anyway, how about Mercs, Snipers, Wyvern Knights(did we ever come to a concensus about Wyvern Riders, by the way?), Character Skills, Bounty Hunters, Commanders, Soldiers, etc.? I'm thinking of all the units/things Haspen made changes to.

[birdy51]

I'm not sure teleporting is very thematic either I'm afraid, so we are in disagreement.

To me, a spy isn't someone who is good in a straight up fight or lightning fast, but someone who knows how to even the odds by any means necessary. For instance, take a look at say, James Bond. He's not really a juggernaut, nor is he necessarily a overly strong or fast man. What he is however, is tricky. He'll find someone way to use the environment against the enemy; to set a trap or an ambush that turns the table and gives him the advantage, usually by a strategically placed device or a well aimed shot. Mooks will walk right into his hand, and then "WHAM!"

Out cold.

[Blade Master Model 42]

Let's finish spies before we move on. We still need to determine the precise mechanics of the traps.

[SeriousConcentrate]

RE James Bond: And he also has tons of gadgets and toys, like, say, the laser in his watch. So traps suit Spies perfectly in my mind, anyway.

[Rolepgeek]

I think of spies as people who always keep you guessing and always has another trick up their sleeve. To even the odds, yes, but I see them as information gatherers first, ambushers second. If they get uncovered, they run.

And I say teleport because that's what it is mechanically, basically. Maybe only out of defensive terrain or buildings(or barrels/impassable terrain?), but fluff-wise, I'm thinking of it like "Ah, but I was really over here, you fool! That's just my decoy/illusion!"

EDIT: and really, my original idea for that was that they could start anywhere on the map, so kindof a teleport but only on turn 1. Like they infiltrated the place beforehand.

[Blade Master Model 42]

Still don't like it. Horrible, horrible idea.

And the trouble with information gathering being a Spy's specialty is that there's not really information to gather, except in RP.

[Shoruke]

The only way I see "information gathering" being useful in combat is as a boost to either Evasion or Critical, and even then it's kind of a stretch.
Traps work better, if for no reason other than they make the "intelligence business" people fight with their intelligence.

Time to brainstorm types of traps? We'll come up with some ideas and then pick which ones Spies / Master Spies should have available, and how many.

[Rolepgeek]

Meh, alright.

So, what types of traps? Since it's a first class and this is kindof a powerful ability, I'm thinking maybe just two, maybe three types.

Caltrops: Invisible to enemies, any units passing over it get -2 MOV for X turns(-4 for horse mounted units, no effect on fliers; this may cause units to stop in place). (Non flier) Units on the square get -15 Hit and Evade, -1 DEF/RES.

Flash Powder: Invisible to enemies, any units passing over it get -20 Hit and Evade and -2 DEF/RES for X turns. Disappears after Y activations.

Toxic Incense: Visible to enemies, any units that end their turn within 2 spaces of it have ([20-CON]*5)% chance of being Poisoned.

[Shoruke]

Ideas for traps!

* Caltrops: Upon entering space, target has 85% chance to be affected by caltrops (Evasion does not apply). On hit, target takes 3 damage and has their MOV reduced by 2 for 3 turns.

* Oil: Enemies who enter space take -10 to Evasion and +5 damage from fire spells for 3 turns.

* Decoy: Summon an ally Dummy, with 1 HP, 0 in all stats (except CON, which is considered equal to that of the Spy), and no equipment. If you spend another turn rigging the Dummy with a second trap, the enemy that destroys the dummy is unavoidably targeted by that trap.

* Fire Rune: Requires the Spy to have a Fire Anima tome in their inventory; subtract 5 QL from the tome upon use. 100% - target's Evasion chance to hit. Deals damage equal to the Mt of the fire tome used (do not add the Spy's MAG to damage).

* Galespot: Requires the Spy to have a Wind Anima tome in their inventory; subtract 5 QL from the tome upon use. This tile requires 3 MOV to pass through. Archers take -30 to hit when shooting into or through this space (does not block diagonals).

* Serrated Discs: 100% - target's Evasion chance to hit. Deals 5 damage.
(we're B12, you want us to have NO Dwarf Fortress references?  )

* Poisoned Caltrops: flat 85% chance to hit, no Evasion. Target is poisoned on hit.


Just some ideas. May or may not need balancing tweaks.

[Blade Master Model 42]

Meh, alright.

So, what types of traps? Since it's a first class and this is kindof a powerful ability, I'm thinking maybe just two, maybe three types.

Caltrops: Invisible to enemies, any units passing over it get -2 MOV for X turns(-4 for horse mounted units, no effect on fliers; this may cause units to stop in place). (Non flier) Units on the square get -15 Hit and Evade, -1 DEF/RES.

Flash Powder: Invisible to enemies, any units passing over it get -20 Hit and Evade and -2 DEF/RES for X turns. Disappears after Y activations.

Toxic Incense: Visible to enemies, any units that end their turn within 2 spaces of it have ([20-CON]*5)% chance of being Poisoned.

Caltrops looks good, Flash Powder should probably be limited to one activation.

Not sure I like Toxic Incense.

@Shoruke: Nuuuuu, not more rolling!

[Rolepgeek]

I wasn't really sure what to do for the third ability, since I felt Decoys should be left to Master Spies. Oil does sound fairly good though...

Oil Slick: Invisible to enemies until activated, first unit to pass over tile gets -2 MOV and takes effective damage from Fire Magic for X turns. Once activated, negates any defensive bonuses of tile it is on, and units on tile get -10 Hit and Evade, movement cost of terrain doubles, if on Stairs, quadruples, costs adjusted movement cost of terrain to get off of. If attacked by Fire Magic, becomes Burning Oil(like burning rubble/forest fire whatever, in addition to normal properties of Oil Slick) for 3 turns, then disappears. Units on tile take +5 Damage from Fire Magic.

[Blade Master Model 42]

Too many factors. Making fire effective should probably be a Master Spy tier trap though.

[Shoruke]

Oil Slick: Invisible to enemies until activated, first unit to pass over tile gets -2 MOV and takes effective damage from Fire Magic for X turns. Once activated, negates any defensive bonuses of tile it is on, and units on tile get -10 Hit and Evade, movement cost of terrain doubles, if on Stairs, quadruples, costs adjusted movement cost of terrain to get off of. If attacked by Fire Magic, becomes Burning Oil(like burning rubble/forest fire whatever, in addition to normal properties of Oil Slick) for 3 turns, then disappears. Units on tile take +5 Damage from Fire Magic.

Wooooah, so many contingent rules.

If we want to mod my suggestions to not have rolls (auto-hit, flat damage, etc.) then that's fine with me.

[Rolepgeek]

What about this:

Smoke Bombs: Instead of taking an action, a Spy may throw down a smoke bomb. This uses up one of his traps, but makes him invisible for the next two turns, or they take an action, whichever comes first. Spies may move after throwing a smoke bomb rather than before, if they wish.

[Shoruke]

MOAR TRAP IDEAS
(not necessarily good ones, but I try)

* Spellrune: Lose 5QL from an Anima or Dark tome in the Spy's inventory upon setup. Enemies who enter the square are targetted by an attack from that tome (do not apply Spy's SKL or MAG).

* Acid bomb: Single activation. Target takes 3 unavoidable damage. If they have a physical weapon equipped, its Mt is reduced by 2 and its QL is reduced by 10.

* Fake-Out Sign: Leave a note hinting at traps / treasure / etc. that do not actually exist, or just a cryptic message that's difficult to decipher. Enemy's movement ends in this square. Cannot affect a given enemy more than once.

* Acrid Smoke: Single activation. Target and anyone adjacent take effective damage once, if it is before the end of their next turn.

* Holy Water: If target is equipped with a Dark magic tome, they suffer -15 to hit for 3 turns.
* Unholy Water: If target is equipped with an Anima tome, they suffer -15 to hit for 3 turns.
* MagiConductive Water: Target takes -15 Evasion and +5 damage against Thunder anima tomes for 3 turns.

* HEY LOOK, A COIN! Oh, it's fake: Enemies use 1 extra movement to enter this tile.
* HEY LOOK, A MUFFIN: Single activation. Target ends turn in this square, and is poisoned at the beginning of their next turn (substitute "apple", "cookie", "candy", or "pie" for "muffin" as necessary)

* Fake Ultimate Weapon: Single activation. Choose a weapon type; trap does not activate for anyone without weapon ranks in that weapon type. Enemy automatically equips weapon with 0 Mt.

...I should stop, my ideas are becoming sillier. Someone else's turn.