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[Retropunch]

game that you want for absolutely realistic fantasy war simulation.

A bit of an oxymoron.... 

I'm not a huge fan of Dominions personally, and I think they need to be played multi-player with a few people that all know the rules very well to get the most out of it (I can see it being great then).

If you wanted to get into AOW, i'd suggest going for Shadow Magic. I prefer the HOMM series myself as I feel they've got a lot more depth in tactics and variety, but it's certainly a good TBS game. AOW 3 is just too bland currently, and I've heard much better things about Warlock 2.

I'm unsure of the modding potential and the official forums haven't been much help. I'm sure some support will come soon, although how much will be opened up for modding is anyones guess.

[gimli]

Indeed buy SM, Doms 4. or Legendary Heroes if you want some fun fantasy TBS games...AoW 3. needs much more time to turn into a "fun" game, at least this is my personal opinion.....as for Warlock 2. I heard that the AI is extremely bad in it, in fact the forum was full of posts about it like 1-2 weeks ago. I am wondering...could they "fix" that for v1.00? IIRC it's going to be released in a few days?

[Levi]

So...  I have to admit I've never played an Age of Wonders game.  I in fact commit the grievous sin of confusing Age of Wonders with Dominions(which I've also never played) on a regular basis.  So I could use some help.

A)  What are the main differences between Dominions 4 and Age of Wonders III?
B)  Which one would you recommend if I were to pick one to play?

Completely different from top to bottom. Dominions is more of a grand strategy game. Think something like Europa Universalis. Heck, Dominions is even categorized as a wargame in some circles... it's the kind of game that you want for absolutely realistic fantasy war simulation.

Age of Wonders is more tactical. Think something like the Total War games.

In AoW, you focus more on tactical placement of your troops, try to figure out lines of fire, entrapment and so on and focus on winning battles. With Dominions, your skill is in picking which provinces to conquer first, diplomacy, etc. There's a bit of that in AoW, but it's not the core mechanic.

I won't dismiss AoW3 entirely, because it looks like a good game. But it seems similar to like Civ5 and Sims 3 when they first came out. It's a step back from AoW2:SM, but has potential with mods and expansions. With a little polish, it could really stand out.

Judging purely from the price tag, I'd recommend Dominions 4 at the moment, because AoW3 is priced about twice as much. Dominions easily takes first place for grand strategy fantasy games whereas AoW3 is still eclipsed by Wesnoth.

Thanks, very helpful!  I've never been able to get into grand war games before, but maybe a fantasy themed one will get me interested.   

[Mindmaker]

A bit of an oxymoron.... 

Completely true though.

[Gervassen]

AoWIII has stripped out the persistent unit enchantments, which really irks me, since I like to stack buffs and create killing machines. Every other game has them, like Warlock and Fallen Enchantress. You can't say that this game is close to either of those. The developers made a conscious decision to eliminate features that have been in every predecessor. This game is rubbish.

Nice editor, though. I made a map with warring surface kingdoms and a vast underworld of goblins barred from reaching the surface by a city of undead. The goal was to give the surface kingdoms some pressure to consolidate. The gobbos, unfortunately, just sit around. The AI can't handle the concept of traversing the different layers. Good editor, horrendously passive AI.

[Retropunch]

I wouldn't really call Dom4 a 'grand strategy game'. I mean it's nothing like EUIV or one of even the total war games, it's just a very complicated/in depth TBS game, with larger armies than usual and loads of spells. There's no 'empire management', diplomacy, espionage, trade or even improvement building seen in the grand strat games.

That's not to say it's a bad game at all, but as I said before, I personally wouldn't suggest it unless you've got friends to play it with or the patience to do an online multiplayer (I think some Bay12 guys are doing one) as I find that without the AI taking advantage of all the really complex buffs/unit mixes/spells you can just roflstomp them by spamming loads of cheap units.

 

[gimli]

Well yes, the Doms 4. AI is quite weak as well. Thankfully the devs are working on it, IIRC there are 4 AI related upgrades in the latest patch. It's a complex game, and the devs never wanted to focus on the singleplayer [sadly...], so it's still a PBEM game mainly. Perhaps they realized that they can sell more copies if they focus on the AI/SP part of the game as well.
PS. The AI is hardcoded, so ppl cannot create AI related mods. It's sad, since creating "AI profiles" for each nations shouldn't be that hard. That would be the proper way to go in regard to create a decent AI for the game. 1 general AI profile will never work in a game like Doms 4.

[Mindmaker]

-snip-

It does get an honourable mention in many grand strategy communities though, even if it's considered an oddity, just like Sengoku Rance for example.
It also has little in common with your classic fantasy TBS, so it's difficult to categorize.

Also it does have espionage and limited trade (items I believe).

[Akhier the Dragon hearted]

AoWIII has stripped out the persistent unit enchantments, which really irks me, since I like to stack buffs and create killing machines. Every other game has them, like Warlock and Fallen Enchantress. You can't say that this game is close to either of those. The developers made a conscious decision to eliminate features that have been in every predecessor. This game is rubbish.

   Its your opinion that the game is rubbish. I like that they don't have persistent unit enchantments as it means there is actually a decision to be made about them rather than just always enchanting your death stack as long as you have the mana. With the enchantments actually taking a turn to cast when you can only cast one spell a turn in combat the use of them is an actual tactical decision.

@Mindmaker Scratch that talking about other game
   You can trade gold, mana, items, cities, and heros though to be honest the diplomacy is very lacking from what I have seen of the random maps though I can't really come to a final verdict till I have played those some rather than just the campaign.

[Mindmaker]

I've been talking about Dominions 4.

[Akhier the Dragon hearted]

Ah okay, that makes a lot more sense

[Retropunch]

It does get an honourable mention in many grand strategy communities though, even if it's considered an oddity, just like Sengoku Rance for example.
It also has little in common with your classic fantasy TBS, so it's difficult to categorize.

Also it does have espionage and limited trade (items I believe).

The espionage and item trade are pretty minor, you can scout places/stay hidden and observe troop movements, but it's very limited. It doesn't have any elements that traditionally make up a grand strat. game like trading, diplomacy, alliances, taxes/allegiance and the like. While I'd certainly say it's a very deep fantasy TBS, it's pretty standard other than that (troops tiers, RPG like commanders, global and battle spells and so on).

I'm not bashing it - I think it's a pretty good game, but I don't want people to buy it thinking it's going to be different to how it is, as I was kinda disappointed when I got it after hearing it talked up so much. It's a great game, and I'm sure with multiplayer/PBEM it'd be fantastic, but as a solo TBS it's just a fantasy TBS with a slightly different slant, tons of depth, but with a terrible UI and a massive manual in my opinion.

[Mindmaker]

The espionage and item trade are pretty minor, you can scout places/stay hidden and observe troop movements, but it's very limited.

You can also seduce/assasinate commanders, sow dissent, undermine enemy dominions or launch raids and stealth attacks.
Some nations has also special units, like the R'lyeh which have a steal unit which will drive everyone in the province insane.

It doesn't have any elements that traditionally make up a grand strat. game like trading, diplomacy, alliances, taxes/allegiance and the like.

They have some of those elements, but not all that deep.

Game isn't really build for diplomacy story wise, since you each player is aspiring to godhood with no rivals allowed.
It still plays a major role in multiplayer games and is supposed to be pretty deep political intrigue, with a lot of secret pacts, backstabbing and lots of roleplaying potential.
Although none of those are actually ingame, true.

While I'd certainly say it's a very deep fantasy TBS, it's pretty standard other than that (troops tiers, RPG like commanders, global and battle spells and so on).

The units aren't really tiered, you can build everything right off the bat, allowing different strategies. And you'll be building cheap and expensive units both throughout the whole game.
Commanders are a bit more flexible, but I guess. You also have little choice on his development and the RPG elements aren't that importan, except if you get lucky with a good Champion trait.
Spells are somewhat comparable to Master of Magic, although there's a whole lot more of them and many of them have awesome effects and there's a whole lot more of them.

I'm not bashing it - I think it's a pretty good game, but I don't want people to buy it thinking it's going to be different to how it is, as I was kinda disappointed when I got it after hearing it talked up so much. It's a great game, and I'm sure with multiplayer/PBEM it'd be fantastic, but as a solo TBS it's just a fantasy TBS with a slightly different slant, tons of depth, but with a terrible UI and a massive manual in my opinion.

Never claimed otherwise, I merely jumped on the genere discussion.

[Mr. Strange]

While I'd certainly say it's a very deep fantasy TBS, it's pretty standard other than that (troops tiers, RPG like commanders, global and battle spells and so on).

The units aren't really tiered, you can build everything right off the bat, allowing different strategies. And you'll be building cheap and expensive units both throughout the whole game.
Commanders are a bit more flexible, but I guess. You also have little choice on his development and the RPG elements aren't that importan, except if you get lucky with a good Champion trait.
Spells are somewhat comparable to Master of Magic, although there's a whole lot more of them and many of them have awesome effects and there's a whole lot more of them.

I'd like to point out, as long time fan and player of both Dominions and AOW series, that I never considered Dom to be "grand strategy game", just turn-based game with incredibly complex tactical element in it, mostly thanks to unit design and the way you can/need to use espionage (scouts, spies and all stealthy unist) and magic to support your armies. More than empire-building (like AOW) it plays much more like traditional wargames, they are really as different as two TBS games can be.

[Neonivek]

Grand Strategy to me only refers to the scope. Not the quality or depth.