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[Persus13]

Mastahcheese: Why are you attacking Whitius based on playstyle?

Because it seems scummy to me. You may just view it as the way he plays, but I don't.
And since I have been attacking him, he's been showing pretty clear reluctance to respond to me, multiple times now, that doesn't seem very town-like to me.

From what I see your attacking WhitiusOpus for having a similar playstyle to yourself, tunneling. While he also was asking loaded questions, I've played plenty of games with people who have asked loaded trap questions, including Jim, who is generally considered very good at Mafia.

At first, it seemed like he was trying to appear town by calling others scum, then it seemed like he was trying to create scummy vibes in people, rather than actually find them. And now, like I mentioned, he's not even wanting to respond when I call this out.

Please provide evidence. And isn't calling others scum the goal of this game?

It's not just his playstyle, and the more I've pressed him, the more convinced I've gotten that he's scum.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't exactly give me confidence. You see, if you keep tunneling people into the ground, you keep finding information that just adds to their scumminess. Sometimes you just need to step back and look at things from a different perspective.

On the No-Lynch:
Yeah, like Persus said, that's really assuming a lurker would get lynched.
I actually did think of bringing up the idea of a No-Lynch in this situation, because it worked well in the first BM that I played, at the end of the game, but if we can lynch scum, then that would be far preferable, as it then gives us a lot more time to find the other one, then just having it down to the wire, like a No-Lynch would cause.

Well, right now the only lurker is Painiac himself since NAV got replaced. So unless scum kill him, the would be forced to kill an active player.

Persus: Do you have any insight on who might be the scum?

No, but so far you and MOWE haven't yet convinced me that Opus is scum.

Can you provide evidence for 3? (Like quotes)

Sure. Here is where I voice my suspicion.Here is where he gives his reads and mentions that I'm "jumping on the opportunity" to lynch him.

Good point, that is odd, but what would town Opus say instead?

2. The action itself seems scummy to me. How is that disliking his playstyle? It's one of the few scummy things I've found.

Do you know how many people on this forum ask loaded questions to get a rise out of people or accuse them of scum for not taking the bait? Several. Do I find it scummy? No. Because its their play style. The other problem is your attacking Opus for what might have happened. It didn't. You might have used this opportunity to attack me more than your little poke at me at the end of this post, but you didn't.

So why are you deciding to take up the defense for Opus and why are you twisting my words around? You keep comparing my thoughts to yours and using this to tell me I'm wrong.

I'm defending Opus because its easier to gauge an argument my defending against it, and because what I've seen of your evidence isn't good enough in my eyes. I'd also like to point out that you and Mastahcheese have both been pursuing Opus for a while, and that no other clear two person team has appeared to have emerged. Please provide evidence of where I'm twisting your words around.

My question was how much of your case against WhitiusOpus can be attributed to newbie mistakes.

All of it. But no one else has been giving scumtells that I've seen.

How many people have you questioned or talk to that's not me in the past two days for an extended length of time?

I'm going to go with MOWE. Mastahcheese I'm not sure about his alignment, but I definitely think MOWE is scum because how she seems to be bandwagoning on Opus.

[zombie urist]

Day 3
MyOwnWorstEnemy - Persus13
WhitiusOpus - mastahcheese, MyOwnWorstEnemy
mastahcheese - WhitiusOpus

Not voting - HissinhWalnuts, Painiac

Day ends in 24 hours.

Make it count!

[mastahcheese]

Mastahcheese: Why are you attacking Whitius based on playstyle?

Because it seems scummy to me. You may just view it as the way he plays, but I don't.
And since I have been attacking him, he's been showing pretty clear reluctance to respond to me, multiple times now, that doesn't seem very town-like to me.

From what I see your attacking WhitiusOpus for having a similar playstyle to yourself, tunneling. While he also was asking loaded questions, I've played plenty of games with people who have asked loaded trap questions, including Jim, who is generally considered very good at Mafia.

At first, it seemed like he was trying to appear town by calling others scum, then it seemed like he was trying to create scummy vibes in people, rather than actually find them. And now, like I mentioned, he's not even wanting to respond when I call this out.

Please provide evidence. And isn't calling others scum the goal of this game?

Ok, I think that it's pretty clear that this whole argument is going to just boil down to me saying "I think he's scum because this reason" and you saying "I don't think that reason is scummy"

I have one viewpoint on it, you have another. I would continue to debate with you on this, but it's pretty clear it's not going to go anywhere.

I find it scummy, I'm sorry you don't.

It's not just his playstyle, and the more I've pressed him, the more convinced I've gotten that he's scum.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't exactly give me confidence. You see, if you keep tunneling people into the ground, you keep finding information that just adds to their scumminess. Sometimes you just need to step back and look at things from a different perspective.

I'm getting really sick of people telling me this, particularly as the person who told me this the most turned out to later be scum.
I'm hunting, do not tell me that I need to stop hunting.
For your information, I have tunneled people, and had them respond, until eventually they addressed all my points.
I don't just create more arguments to keep the tunneling going, I point things out as they come up, and if things stop coming up, then that's when I stop.
This isn't a case where things have stopped coming up, this is a case where things continue to be drawn out, more things come up that I feel the need to address, and I'm continuing to fail to receive answers for them.

I feel like I should point out the unusual turn of events that Opus admits to not wanting to answer me, which is apparently also not scummy in your book, and then he backs off, to let you, a more experienced player, step in to defend him in his place.

When he flips as scum, you're going to have some questions to fucking answer.

[zombie urist]

12 hours left

[WhitiusOpus]

Know what? unvote. Mastahcheese, your being tunnely and overly defensive may just be your gameplay. That's just your playstyle, as is mine. I find your posts these past bit to be closer to town, (although I'm still unsure).

Yes, I know what I'm doing will Recieve criticism. But right now, MOWE seems scummier to me. He is basically ensuring a lynch on me, while only providing reasons that mastahcheese has already provided.

Can you provide evidence for 3? (Like quotes)

Sure. Here is where I voice my suspicion.Here is where he gives his reads and mentions that I'm "jumping on the opportunity" to lynch him.

My question was how much of your case against WhitiusOpus can be attributed to newbie mistakes.

All of it. But no one else has been giving scumtells that I've seen.

Persus:

MOWE, briefly describe your case on WhitiusOpus. WHat of his actions are not Newbie mistakes.

1. He was the one who tied the D1 vote at the last minute.
2. He asked a loaded question of mastahcheese claiming it was to "gauge his reaction," yet if mastahcheese had not pointed out the fact that it was a loaded question, Opus could have easily argued that mastah is scum regardless of his answer.
3. He accused me of jumping on the opportunity to lynch him when I hadn't voted him, but FoS'd him to let him know I was watching him.

And the second part... are you asking what if his actions aren't newbie mistakes or are you asking which of his actions I think aren't newbie mistakes?

1 is a really easy mistake to make, and I don't have a problem with. Can you provide evidence for 3? (Like quotes)
2 is a hypothetical and a playstyle criticism. Disliking someone's playstyle should not be a scumtell. I dislike some people's playstyles on this forum, but that doesn't mean I find them scummy.

1. Fair enough
2. The action itself seems scummy to me. How is that disliking his playstyle? It's one of the few scummy things I've found.

So why are you deciding to take up the defense for Opus and why are you twisting my words around? You keep comparing my thoughts to yours and using this to tell me I'm wrong.

Here he lists his reasons as:
1. Tying the D1 vote. I've already explained the reasons behind this, since it was a lack of serious thought regarding the time limit.

2. Asking a loaded question. He even points out the fact that it was to guage a reaction. Then he completely disregards what he just said - the point of the question was to GARNER A REACTION. I didn't care so much what his answer was, just how he answered it.

3. I accuse you of an opportunity to lynch me since that's exactly what you're doing. You FoS'd me, but my accusation was after you had already voted me.

Basically, not bandwagoning, but looking for an easy lynch - he jumps on the first chance available for a slip up. I know this will tie up the vote, and that's my plan - I don't want town to lose. It's MyLo right now, and lynching me will make us lose.

[Persus13]

Ok, I think that it's pretty clear that this whole argument is going to just boil down to me saying "I think he's scum because this reason" and you saying "I don't think that reason is scummy"

Way to not answer the question. You realize if your wrong we've lost, right? Unless you'll win if you're wrong.

It's not just his playstyle, and the more I've pressed him, the more convinced I've gotten that he's scum.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't exactly give me confidence. You see, if you keep tunneling people into the ground, you keep finding information that just adds to their scumminess. Sometimes you just need to step back and look at things from a different perspective.

I'm getting really sick of people telling me this, particularly as the person who told me this the most turned out to later be scum.
I'm hunting, do not tell me that I need to stop hunting.

I didn't mention anything about hunting. Now you're twisting your words. You've seen people tell you to stop using your strategy who turned out to be scum. I've seen people use that strategy as scum to go for a lynch on a townie. I've seen giant town v. town fights erupt and waste time, because a guy thought a guy was scum, and then saw all sorts of things that confirmed their opinion because they automatically assumed from their initial judgment that that person was scum. Closemindedness has lost me Mafia games, so I tend to try and avoid it when I can.
 

I don't just create more arguments to keep the tunneling going, I point things out as they come up, and if things stop coming up, then that's when I stop.

Good. I've seen you play well with this playstyle (Makeinu's lynch, your first BM, for one), but there is a problem. We still have a fully-fledged scum team, but the only place where the votes stack is you and MOWE. That worries me. THat's what I want you to see. Unless your scum, that should bother you, too.

I feel like I should point out the unusual turn of events that Opus admits to not wanting to answer me, which is apparently also not scummy in your book, and then he backs off, to let you, a more experienced player, step in to defend him in his place.

I've never said Opus wasn't scummy, just your full case against him wasn't convincing to me. And if I did have access to the scumchat, I'd advice scum Opus to join in, and give him a few points of his own to say. He obviously hasn't liked this experience and wants to quit, and in addition has limited time and I think that if he had support from a scumchat, things might be different.

When he flips as scum, you're going to have some questions to fucking answer.

And if he flips as town, I'd have questions for you to answer, if the game wouldn't end first.

WhitiusOpus: Darn you, I was going to tie up the vote. And you did with arguments taken from me. Now I'm torn. You just made yourself scummier, but scum, or town, you probably would have made this move anyway.

Mastahcheese, please be on and give me something to help me decide.

[4maskwolf]

DAY ENDS IN ABOUT TWO HOURS PEOPLE!!!!

[mastahcheese]

Ok, I think that it's pretty clear that this whole argument is going to just boil down to me saying "I think he's scum because this reason" and you saying "I don't think that reason is scummy"

Way to not answer the question. You realize if your wrong we've lost, right? Unless you'll win if you're wrong.

Me not answering the question is me realizing an argument that won't go anywhere, because it's already gone back and forth once, and ended exactly where it started. If you'd like to continue with that line, we can do that.
And yes, I do realize that if I'm wrong, we'll lose, but this is honestly the best lead I've got.

It's not just his playstyle, and the more I've pressed him, the more convinced I've gotten that he's scum.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't exactly give me confidence. You see, if you keep tunneling people into the ground, you keep finding information that just adds to their scumminess. Sometimes you just need to step back and look at things from a different perspective.

I'm getting really sick of people telling me this, particularly as the person who told me this the most turned out to later be scum.
I'm hunting, do not tell me that I need to stop hunting.

I didn't mention anything about hunting. Now you're twisting your words. You've seen people tell you to stop using your strategy who turned out to be scum. I've seen people use that strategy as scum to go for a lynch on a townie. I've seen giant town v. town fights erupt and waste time, because a guy thought a guy was scum, and then saw all sorts of things that confirmed their opinion because they automatically assumed from their initial judgment that that person was scum. Closemindedness has lost me Mafia games, so I tend to try and avoid it when I can.
[/quote]
Alright, fine. I'll admit that you didn't explicitly mention hunting, but to me that's how it translates.
But it's still how I prefer to play. And for me at least, it's worked well.

I don't just create more arguments to keep the tunneling going, I point things out as they come up, and if things stop coming up, then that's when I stop.

Good. I've seen you play well with this playstyle (Makeinu's lynch, your first BM, for one), but there is a problem. We still have a fully-fledged scum team, but the only place where the votes stack is you and MOWE. That worries me. THat's what I want you to see. Unless your scum, that should bother you, too.
[/quote]
...Alright, I haven't really been paying too much attention to the vote stacking, I'll also admit to that, and you do have a point on that. That's not something I was really thinking about, because I've been focusing more on scumhunting, without really thinking about what other people are up to.
That's my fault.

I feel like I should point out the unusual turn of events that Opus admits to not wanting to answer me, which is apparently also not scummy in your book, and then he backs off, to let you, a more experienced player, step in to defend him in his place.

I've never said Opus wasn't scummy, just your full case against him wasn't convincing to me. And if I did have access to the scumchat, I'd advice scum Opus to join in, and give him a few points of his own to say. He obviously hasn't liked this experience and wants to quit, and in addition has limited time and I think that if he had support from a scumchat, things might be different.
[/quote]
Yeah, I've seen this general argument before, that if someone did have access to scumchat, and therefore help from others, than they wouldn't have done this or that, but I've also been fooled of someone's innocence by mistakenly assuming nobody would allow scum to do some of the things they did.
Basically, innocence through ignorance.
In theory, it's something you can argue, but in reality, it can also be used against the very people looking for it.


But the day is about to end in a No-Lynch, it looks like, so we'll see.

[zombie urist]

Day 3
MyOwnWorstEnemy - Persus13, WhitiusOpus
WhitiusOpus - mastahcheese, MyOwnWorstEnemy

Not voting - HissinhWalnuts, Painiac

1 hour left!

[zombie urist]

day ended. writeup tomorrow morning.

[zombie urist]

A cool breeze blew over the clearing as the day's conversation died.

"Whitius Opus is a horse, of course of course!", Mastahcheese claimed.
"No MyOwnWorstEnemy is!", Persus countered.

Arguments flew from both sides but neither one were willing to back down. Neither side was able to convince the other.

Once again, the group had no choice but to not lynch anyone.

No one was lynched!

Night will end Monday.

[zombie urist]

The group awakened after another night of uneasy sleeping. The unicorns lamented the wasted time and their fallen friends caused by this horrible situation. Still, even though the situation looked grim, everyone knew it was not over yet. They still had a chance to defeat the horses.

They knew another unicorn was killed during the night. A quick search revealed WhitiusOpus' body in a patch of mud. A clear patch of water stood where his blood met the ground.

Everyone quickly mourned his death, then immediately started arguing.

WhitiusOpus has been killed! He was a vanilla townie.

Day 4 will end Thursday April 24th at 9 PM PST.

[Persus13]

Well that was unexpected. I have no idea what to think about that.

[mastahcheese]

Aaaand, there went the only lead I had.

...I guess I don't really have any questions for you on defending him, then.

Ok, I have to get off the computer right now, which is just as well, as I need to rethink this.

[WhitiusOpus]

HHHHHHHNNNNNNGGGGGGG-


MUSTRESISTURGETOPOSTGAMERELEVANTINFORMATION.

*Is dead*