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[Rolepgeek]

((I mean, fuck, all this technology and they decide to make humanoid figures? And not ones that shoot lasers from their eyes? Good goddamn man. You could think they would at least make a mobile fortress, possibly one that floats))

You obviously haven't seen any of the Mobile Armors. Single pilot vehicles, all huge, some larger than even the largest space vessels.

((Okay, how many separate guns do they have? As in, capable of targeting independently?))

((Also, single-pilot is pretty dumb; they only have to bribe one dude for the mutiny, and if he dies during the operation of it, there's no one in it to continue the fight anyway. It's why co-pilots are used, at the least, in most military vehicles that fulfill a similar role.))

((@Culise, Only the Big Zam seems even remotely like what I was thinking of in terms of armaments. And how the hell can a particle gun be wire-guided))

((I'm basically asking where all the flying, possibly human-shaped, battleships, dreadnoughts, and carriers are.))

[Parsely]

Yes Rolep, that's why we have co-pilots, in case the first one gets bribed and betrays everyone. XD

[Furtuka]

...Psycho Gundam?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Mobile Fortress mode (yes that's literally what its called) (click to show/hide)

As for the wire guided... it's complicated and Guni might start ranting if we get into that . Well ok not really... *takes a deep breath*

Basically since guided missiles and remote units are rendered useless by minovsky interference they had to find new methods. Zeon research on the concept of Newtype's, Zeon Zum Deikun's philosophical concept of humans who upon going into space will ascend their conciousness to a more enlightened state, discovers individuals who have developed a form of ESP. The definition of Newtype is soon changed to instead refer to these people, who have varying abilities such as very limited precognition and the ability to communicate their emotions directly to each other.

Zeon researchers invents the Psycommu, a device that bypass the issue of guided weapons by amplifying newtype brainwaves to communicate with receiving devices that translate them into machine code, allowing for a single operating to control many remote units with their minds. This is used to create bits, large self propelled guns that are controlled by mobile armor pilots. In the Gryps conflict they are miniaturized, creating the smaller and more efficient funnels with the invention of the Quebuley.

And to get to the point, early psycommu units used connecting wires to help the process, and allow non Newtype pilots to more crudely control the bits electronically, with the obvious weakness that the wires can be severed.

[adwarf]

Rolep dude, its a mecha anime. There does not need to be an explanation for anything, and every thing (and there sure as hell never will be due to it being a work of fiction), all it needs is to be is fun and it is to me, and many others. Don't read to deep into it, like seriously in UC some parts of physics are just different from reality for example, the reason things are as they are is because that is how the creators wanted them to be. And, well, it works damn well enough to be really enjoyable so no point in questioning it.

[Rolepgeek]

Yes Rolep, that's why we have co-pilots, in case the first one gets bribed and betrays everyone. XD

Exactly! That way he can shoot the traitor in the head and go on with the mission.

Or get shot in the head dramatically. Either way.

My griping is not with the One Big Lie adwarf; the only annoyances I may have had with that were because I didn't fully understand it. My gripes are with the intelligence and design schematics of the people in the show not having sufficient explanation. As well, I derive enjoyment precisely from reading 'too deep into it'.

I mean, hell, I can easily come up with a reason for why there's humanoid mechs that do most of the fighting; neural jacks. Humans plug in directly to the machines and control them as if they were their own body, allowing for incredible reaction times and performance by trained operators. Humanoid forms then allow the easiest transferal of skill and understanding, as configuring one's brain to work as if your body was, say, a centaur, or a motorcycle, would be incredibly difficult. Pilots who've mastered non-humanoid forms can therefore be shown as more skilled and dangerous than others, having an advantage against humanoid mechs in that they've dealt with and fought such shapes their entire careers, while their opponents have never really fought [insert design theme here]. It also allows for drama in being hacked or being discovered while still plugged in and unable to defend yourself, etc.

[Culise]

((I mean, fuck, all this technology and they decide to make humanoid figures? And not ones that shoot lasers from their eyes? Good goddamn man. You could think they would at least make a mobile fortress, possibly one that floats))

You obviously haven't seen any of the Mobile Armors. Single pilot vehicles, all huge, some larger than even the largest space vessels.

((Okay, how many separate guns do they have? As in, capable of targeting independently?))

((Also, single-pilot is pretty dumb; they only have to bribe one dude for the mutiny, and if he dies during the operation of it, there's no one in it to continue the fight anyway. It's why co-pilots are used, at the least, in most military vehicles that fulfill a similar role.))

((@Culise, Only the Big Zam seems even remotely like what I was thinking of in terms of armaments. And how the hell can a particle gun be wire-guided))

((I'm basically asking where all the flying, possibly human-shaped, battleships, dreadnoughts, and carriers are.))

((It's been a long time, but at a guess, it could work like a UC precursor to the heat whip you see in the AC era/Gundam W.  It fires conducting wires that impact the target, then ionize an arc for the particle gun's beam path to follow along the wire.  That's something you'd expect out of an early particle gun prototype, though, not a culmination of the entire war's worth of research and development.

The thing is, if you get much bigger, you're talking just as you say - battleships, dreadnoughts, and the like, which are on an entirely-different scale from mobile suits and mobile armor.  The White Base and other Pegasus class carriers, the older Salamis and Magellan (not to be confused with the Magella), and on Zeon's side, the Gwazine and Musai.  Outside of UC, my favourite is still the big momma of Gundam battleships, the Libra.  It has the classic mega-cannon to overawe the nice stationary targets that are the colonies, "lots" of close-in defense guns, and is large enough to threaten a nuclear winter should even a quarter of its mass successfully impact.

The big issue is that Minovsky particles disrupt all EM radiation, including visible light spectrum; local densities typically aren't that high, but it's just enough to make targeting at long distances impossible, which means that you end up with issues very much akin to the horizon problem that led to, on Earth, the development of the aircraft carrier and missile carriers which come with "over-the-horizon" strike capabilities.  Since Minovsky particles also disrupt electronics unless extensive and bulky shielding is used, ruling out unmanned drones and missiles, that means a carrier doctrine is adopted, focused on fleet carriers, defense ships, and mobile suits/armors taking up the gap of fighters for force projection.  Losing a squad of GMs or Zakus is much easier to replace than the heavy ships, and one-pilot craft are less punishing on manpower requirements.  From a meta standpoint, it's literally what Minovsky particles were put into the narrative for, like FTL in space opera. 

Also, this kind of discussion is fun.  Gundam does indeed pretend to be harder than most sci-fi, even though it probably rates much softer due to owing so much to its genre conventions - it's a mecha anime, so it must have mecha, which is the reason they use mobile suits instead of mobile armor or actual space-superiority fighters.))

[Furtuka]

((and as the first "real robot" anime ever created the UC timeline has a lot more leftover kibble from the old Super Robot shows stuck to it than some of the later shows would... Though at the same time it also feels like it has a lot more thought into it than some other mecha series in various areas since it was made with the intent of revolutionizing the genre.

Also I edited an explanation of the wire thing into my previous post if you missed that Rolep))

[Rolepgeek]

That's...that's wire-operated or wire-transfer, not wire-guided! Wire-guided means a wire trails behind the missile that is used to transmit the data to correct it's flight path! Wire-guided particle weapons are just so...so...Gah!

Also, presumably Minovsky particles(they come from the specific type of power generators they use, right? So wouldn't it, in a lot of ways, be beneficial to, ya know, use different power sources for some stuff?) don't affect human brain activity. By the way, how do they communicate over long distances, then? Or is that impossible too? Because if they can, why not just use spotters for artillery and the like?

Additionally, why even have 'heads' for the GMs and Zakus? They're kinda pointless except as a target. And why so little weaponry, comparatively? And why so fuckin' huge instead being, like, 4-5 meters tall? And why hands and weapons shaped for them instead of detachable configurable weaponry that makes up the forearm and can shift between various payloads/weapon types? And why and why and why...

See, if it didn't act like it was hard sci-fi I wouldn't really have any problem with it. As is, I only have even a slight problem for it because designing this shit is the type of stuff I do heavy research on and crap for fun. So when people just handwave it -badly- it makes me twitch.

Of course, I typically handwave everything with nanobots instead of weird radiation, but still.

[Furtuka]

Okay calm down rolep I know you don't mean any harm but you're starting to make some people pretty ticked off behind the scenes. Remember what I told you the other day about sounding like GWG.

Also minovsky particles aren't directly spread by their power supply. They're generated as a by product of the reaction yes, but what happens is that they are collected by people and then dispersed via special equipment at the start of an engagement. The ones in vehicles are put to use by helping catalyse the reaction.  Here http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Minovsky_Physics#Minovsky_Physics

[Parsely]

Also, presumably Minovsky particles (they come from the specific type of power generators they use, right? So wouldn't it, in a lot of ways, be beneficial to, ya know, use different power sources for some stuff?) don't affect human brain activity. By the way, how do they communicate over long distances, then? Or is that impossible too? Because if they can, why not just use spotters for artillery and the like?

Additionally, why even have 'heads' for the GMs and Zakus? They're kinda pointless except as a target. And why so little weaponry, comparatively? And why so fuckin' huge instead being, like, 4-5 meters tall? And why hands and weapons shaped for them instead of detachable configurable weaponry that makes up the forearm and can shift between various payloads/weapon types? And why and why and why...

See, if it didn't act like it was hard sci-fi I wouldn't really have any problem with it. As is, I only have even a slight problem for it because designing this shit is the type of stuff I do heavy research on and crap for fun. So when people just handwave it -badly- it makes me twitch.

Go read about it. There's extensive wikis for this.

Some mobile suits don't have prominent heads, otherwise putting cameras at the tallest part of your vehicle is pretty important if you want to know what's around you. Hey you know what's extremely modular? Hands! In fact you can pick up just about anything to use it as a weapon. Isn't that remarkable?[/sarcasm] >_>

Everything in Universal Century is very well justified, especially when compared to most mecha. Also: lighten up.

[Rolepgeek]

If people are ticked off, I would appreciate if they tell me about it and the reasons for it, through PM if nothing else.

If it's actually upsetting people that I'm discussing this in the downtime between turns, I can stop, but I don't see why people would be, unless they're really invested in Gundam and think it's the greatest show ever or something(which, granted, is entirely possible). It's not like I can actually change anything by talking about this, nor would I want to; I much prefer Gundam and other such hot-blooded shows to the angst-fests that seem to be part of just about every magical girl/mecha dude/awesome stuff show that doesn't have steaming sanguinity.

Also, I think the biggest difference between me and GWG is that I want to learn, not win. Though it's hard to be objective about things I do, by virtue of being the one doing them.

...maybe they mean some sort of particle-gun mounted on a missile? That would make sense if it was really short ranged...

Sidenote: I feel like I should be the one telling you guys to lighten up about my nickering...also while I cede your point, Gunin, I must note that that's true for melee combat primarily, though with the amount of melee combat that seems to happen in Gundam...

Othersidenote: The picture is still freaking awesome, by the way, and espouses everything I like about the genre.

[Furtuka]

No the wire thing is just a misapplication of terminology Rolep. Best not to get hung up on it.

Edit:

I much prefer Gundam and other such hot-blooded shows to the angst-fests that seem to be part of just about every magical girl/mecha dude/awesome stuff show that doesn't have steaming sanguinity.

Er... Gundam is pretty angsty and not hot blooded unless you're talking about G Gundam? O_o i'm confused


Anyways it makes people uncomfortable since the complaints make people feel like the franchise is being bashed which nobody likes when something they enjoy is involved. Especially when said by someone who seems to be newer to the franchise... It's more the ranting over how so and so is stupid without having enough of a "Oh you " joking tone I guess?

It can feel frustrating to have to explain this stuff, especially since its some of the subjects get into complexities that are only touched on for most people. I'd say to ask /m/ to find proper experts on how everything works but there'd be a 50/50 chance that you'd get flamed/trolled to hell and back since they're a 4chan branch so thats  a terrible idea. I guess mahq might be better at this?

 To be honest it has been bugging me a little too, though it is somewhat of an entertaining discussion, albeit a little stressful. No offense.

[Parsely]

What's annoying is that it sounds like you're trying to prove something when there's nothing to be proven. The game, as a piece of fiction, has to be based on certain facts that, regardless of real-life rules, must remain completely undeniable in order for it to function. I'm willing to suspend my disbelief in order to have cool robits.

Discussing is fun, but not when you try to sound like a know-it-all. As a matter of fact it does feel like you're trying to 'win' these conversations. Just lighten up a little from here on in and it's no biggie, cool?

...maybe they mean some sort of particle-gun mounted on a missile? That would make sense if it was really short ranged...

Minovsky particles block most kinds of radiation. So radio communication doesn't work, thus guided or tracking munitions aren't very useful. It only sort of affects infrared radiation, so communication is done by laser. This also means that in space target acquisition is done with eyeballs and long-range heat detection. Radar is obviously totally useless on the battlefield.

Ship to ship combat occurs at extremely close range, with broadsides, but because of minovsky interference even at close range it's very easy to miss. Humans are the biggest factor when it comes to accuracy. This is where mobile suits come in, because they're such small, agile targets even a rookie can fly right up to the bridge of a warship and hose it without them being able to do anything. The utility of a bipedal weapon that can function in any environment is undeniable.

You should watch the show sometime to get a better idea of some of the facts surrounding the universe. It really is very comprehensive the lengths those responsible for it have gone to make everything plausible in order to achieve this unique and rich setting.

[Rolepgeek]

I started watching 08th MS Gundam Team a while back.

Also, wire-guided missiles don't need radiation; that's the point, it gets sent through the wire.

Why do they have such big ships if they're still inaccurate and have to get up close, then?

Ooh, question! Does sonar still work? Sub battles would be interesting.

[Furtuka]

:3 As a matter of fact, there are many aquatic mobile suits in use during the One Year War, and Guni and I have had a couple discussions on what to do with them.

Also I repeat, the wires are not talking about wire guided missiles. Looking up diagrams the concepts a bit similar, but- actually I don't know what the confusion here is? Am I the one who's actually being confused as to whether the matter has been settled or not? It's a mystery.

See here  1 2 3 4 the last one probably illustrates it best

an extra  couple video about funnels just because I can