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[notquitethere]

I would suggest not letting rank newbies into the game.

Reasonable enough.

- Convert now only half-converts: a player can be one of three alignments: scum, mafia ally and town. Scum converting town turns them into an MA, scum converting an MA turns them into a full scum player. Scum can't be converted but town players can convert mafia allys to town.

Having your win condition change multiple times in one game still sounds really shitty.

I hear that, but if a player doesn't like that sort of thing, they can take Incorruptible. I'll wait and see what others think on this one.

- Scum can now buy Miller for 1xp (rather than the usual -1xp)

I think all townies should still take Miller, really.  Ability Cop would then basically clear them since there would be an obvious 2 point hole in any mafia miller setups.

Yeah, okay I think I'm in agreement here; so I think I'm going to scrap Miller. Scum can hide their bad powers, gossip and frame others, as well as gifting or swapping obvscum-powers to others. Can you suggest some more tools they could have in their arsenal?

[Jack A T]

- Convert now only half-converts: a player can be one of three alignments: scum, mafia ally and town. Scum converting town turns them into an MA, scum converting an MA turns them into a full scum player. Scum can't be converted but town players can convert mafia allys to town.

Having your win condition change multiple times in one game still sounds really shitty.

I hear that, but if a player doesn't like that sort of thing, they can take Incorruptible. I'll wait and see what others think on this one.

I don't think any player likes that sort of thing, and the idea of someone spending 3 of their (rather valuable) points just to avoid EpicMafia-level allegiance shifting seems a bit much.  Constant wincon changes make it hard to play for any team you end up on, and aren't all that fun.

[zombie urist]

Kill should be cheaper for scum than town.

I think convert should be scrapped entirely. Its not fun at all. Maybe 1-use if you really want it in.

I also think sap should only take away 50% of an opponents points.

Looked interesting and fun. Congrats to the town for a great day 2.

[notquitethere]

See, my thinking is that it's more fun for players to be converted and keep playing than be killed. I didn't think the supercult was all that bad as it actually panned out. I'd be interested in hearing more on this. Might keep cult in as it is but with a cheaper kill to incentivise a different strategies.

I'd consider lowering kill to 5 points, but I probably don't want different point costs for alignment (as has been pointed out, regarding Miller).

Sap taking 50% might be more reasonable.

[Leafsnail]

We didn't really have a super-cult in this game, there was only one converter and none of the other mafia members were prepared to take over.

I feel torn every time I think about Convert in this game.  On the one hand I really don't think it's a fun mechanic, but on the other hand it feels like the only reasonable way scum have to break up the army of confirmed townies that will inevitably emerge in this game-type.

[Jack A T]

... the army of confirmed townies that will inevitably emerge in this game-type.

The glorious inspect web was getting a bit out of hand by the end of the game, I must say.

[notquitethere]

So the obvious alternative to break up the inspect webbing (besides removing infallible inspection now) is a third-party role. Like a sole-survivor (i.e. serial killer but they'd have to buy their own kill etc.).

Also, maybe have mafia-allies come up as town on alignment inspect.

Overall, I like it being a challenging game for scum: they usually get such a cakewalk on this forum.

[Tack]

Although at the very least with mastahcheese he only gave it up after he'd been inspected.
Not by a confirmed townie, but C'est la vie.

[Persus13]

Although at the very least with mastahcheese he only gave it up after he'd been inspected.
Not by a confirmed townie, but C'est la vie.

No, he gave up after getting roleblocked. Scum still had a slight chance to win, but Mastahcheese threw it away.

[Leafsnail]

If you get inspected you call the person who inspected you scum (although that didn't actually happen here).  Or if you think you're doomed you don't make a single post unless it's to end the day prematurely with a hammer-vote or to prod-dodge.  There is no justification at all for what mastahcheese did (claimed scum, self-voted without hammering, gave the town lots of usable information).

[Toaster]

Interesting game.

I have to say, Jim, you and Sheeprochir were the most misread players this game.

Told you Jim was town.  This was one of my better games for picking out the scum team, actually.  Mastahcheese should have kept his mouth shut, though.

- Convert now only half-converts: a player can be one of three alignments: scum, mafia ally and town. Scum converting town turns them into an MA, scum converting an MA turns them into a full scum player. Scum can't be converted but town players can convert mafia allys to town.

Having your win condition change multiple times in one game still sounds really shitty.

I agree with this.  Convert should be costly, but work as it does.  If it must be nerfed beyond cost, either cap the scum team size at +1 of original or make convert one-shot only.

If you get inspected you call the person who inspected you scum (although that didn't actually happen here).  Or if you think you're doomed you don't make a single post unless it's to end the day prematurely with a hammer-vote or to prod-dodge.  There is no justification at all for what mastahcheese did (claimed scum, self-voted without hammering, gave the town lots of usable information).

Basically, play like Leafsnail.  He worked hard with what he had and almost got away with it.  His self-hammer was absolutely the correct play.




Ignoring the proposal list for a second, I would suggest:

Kill should go down a point in cost and Convert should go up one; maybe two.  Right now scum has zero reason to take kill.
Explode should work against conversions (and leave the explosive player town).  [I do note you have this on your list]
Miller is fundamentally broken, and I'm not sure if it's fixable.  That said, as-is regular alignment cop should drop a point in cost.  The only thing I could think of is a scum-only 1 point flaw that could fix the count problem, but I'm not sure what that would be.
Infallible alignment cop needs to go up a point as well.
Ability cop is fine as is, though it could not show flaws to make things more interesting. (see miller versus ScumOnlyOnePointFlaw)
Mercenary is still useless.  It should be -2 at least.
Sap should be nerfed.  I propose capping its point steal power at two-three.  It's an interesting power, but the recycle/day-sap combo is a bit too much.
Similarly, Cleanse should probably be nerfed too, to removing a single random flaw.  It's too strong in the hands of scum, IMO.


As a whole, I'd consider doubling every point value everywhere (all the costs, 10 points to start, 2 points a day) to allow more granularity in power pricing.  Leaving merc at one point cost might make it not terrible at this point.

Looking at the revised list...

Careful about making point share cheaper, since that makes it easy day range.  You could easily give a scummate 11 points during D1 with the current setup.
Even in normal Mafia, frame is a weak ability.  It's very weak in this one, and no one will buy it at 3 points (or virtuous at two.)  That said, if you want some dud prizes in there for Santa to give out...
Copycat must exclude conversion, and possibly kill for scum on scum targeting.  Does it inherit the flaws of the person copying or copied?
Normally I'd say chat would be useless, but in this setup it's interesting.  Watch for formation of town bases with it.
Can the recipient tell the difference between being hit with Santa and Generous?
Fortune Teller seems useless at half strength, especially for four points.

I'm sure there's more, but I'll think a bit.

Bastard mode:  Run this Deep South (nightless).  Points can be spent/redeemed at any time.

[4maskwolf]

TDS: I wasn't trying to downplay the accomplishments of others, I was just saying that if Deathsword hadn't been caught day two, the town would have been in a bad way. I think you and Jack A T were the largest contributes mechanically to the game. Note the word mechanically: everyone contributed a lot to the day game.

[TheDarkStar]

TDS: I wasn't trying to downplay the accomplishments of others, I was just saying that if Deathsword hadn't been caught day two, the town would have been in a bad way. I think you and Jack A T were the largest contributes mechanically to the game. Note the word mechanically: everyone contributed a lot to the day game.

Yeah, this was a REALLY active game.

[Tack]

everyone contributed a lot to the day game.

I disagree. I was undisputedly the most useless town player in the game.

The only thing I did was put suspicion on LS until OWM confirmed him as scum anyway.

[Jack A T]

everyone contributed a lot to the day game.

I disagree. I was undisputedly the most useless town player in the game.

You attracted interesting attention.  It was Leafsnail's attacks on you and Tiruin that alerted me most to his scummitude.