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[Tiruin]

I know, but with hammers at 7...

[Jim Groovester]

Everyone:  Who do you think is the converter, and why?

I don't know. There are convincing arguments several different ways and I don't know which one to agree with.

I'm voting Tiruin and I've stated reasons for why I think that's the case, i.e., bad nonsensical suboptimal build.

Both Leafsnail and I and TDS and Objective have hard-counterclaimed each other.  That means one of each pairing is scum.  Who do you think it is for each pair?

Objective definitely.

Between you and Leafsnail, I don't know. There's that infallible inspect thing but Leafsnail is also silver-tongued and has been consistently making lots of sense.

Also, Leafsnail has claimed one gift.  Both Tawa and Jim have claimed giving him one.  No one seems concerned about this.  Why?

Tawarochir is bad and his claim is sketchy. I explained my misgivings somewhere but I'm too exhausted to find them for you. The short of it is that he seemed to have claimed a role from the Fortune Teller list without realizing that some of the actions had already been claimed by others. He also apparently admits this.

His claim is here.

Where it gets interesting is here.

[notquitethere]

One of the adventurers suddenly snaps to, after staring off into the corner for much of the recent debate.

"I've been thinking, we need to kill the Djinn, right?"

This was a rhetorical question and the adventurers, raised on epic verse, were literarily well versed in such devices.

"So," continued the now considerably less absent one, "let's build a fire in the middle of the room and toast them out."

"Ok, 'Toaster', where you going to get the wood from?" sneered the Toaster's rival, the Leaf Snail.

"The pews!"

"The smoke will choke us all!"

"Sounds like Djinn talk to me."

Vote Count
Tiruin - [3] Leafsnail, Jim Groovester, Persus13
mastahcheese
4maskwolf
Jim Groovester
Tack
NativeForeigner
Objective
*MyOwnWorstEnemy Toaster
Deathsword Persus13 - [3] Tack, Objective, TheDarkStar
Tawarochir - [1] Jack A T
*Jack A T
*Leafsnail
TheDarkStar - [1] Tawarochir
No Lynch

Not Voting: NativeForeigner, Tiruin, Toaster
7 votes needed to hammer.

*Has used their extend.

Game ends 11am Thursday GMT in about 24 hours.

[Tiruin]

Everyone:  Who do you think is the converter, and why?

I don't know. There are convincing arguments several different ways and I don't know which one to agree with.

I'm voting Tiruin and I've stated reasons for why I think that's the case, i.e., bad nonsensical suboptimal build.

Yeah, let's expect the scumteam to not have a kill.
That's brilliant. >_>

PFP

"Ok, 'Toaster', where you going to get the wood from?" sneered the Toaster's rival, the Leaf Snail.

You make LS awesomer xD
I like that.

[Tack]

Ok, so Leafsnail is making sense that the scumteam could be switch-claiming their roles between them.

I'm inclined to disbelieve that. Not because possi-scum (actually it's becoming less and less likely in my eyes) but because all of the scum seem not to have completely prepared for the massclaim.

In fact, I'd be inclined to believe that OWM is the converter.
Think about it from a logical perspective:
- I claimed town and then had everyone act relatively protective/dismissive of me.
- Nobody has yet verified OWM's claim
- We know that at least one gift has been inadvertently Santa'd to a scum, just via Tawarochir-ing
- while people talk about the flip-flop from objective and Leafsnail at Deathsword (which was crazy obvious), nobody has talked about leafsnail's flipflop against OWM.
- OWM (now toaster) went back to active lurking, but toaster has now asked questions such as "how many people believe my side"

It's been said- Leafsnail is incredibly competent at Mafia.
The idea that both LS and toaster are scum is a stretch, but if it's true I'd literally stand and applaud.
But either way, we have no evidence that OWM isn't scum- other than pointing a finger  at someone whose only real scumtell was an incredibly dodgy recycle on me.
And while Leafsnail isn't prone to making mistakes, it is rather uncommon for someone to claim cop on the first day.

As the Deathsword hammer has been stopped, I think I might as well change my vote.
toaster

[Tiruin]

toaster

wat

[Tiruin]

Toaster = MOWE.
MOWE = Infallible Alignment Cop; Bought N1; Didn't buy or get any flaw/power/auto pre-game, inferred.
She's the only one who picked the only other alignmentcop and targeted Leafsnail who shows up as Scum.

- OWM (now toaster) went back to active lurking, but toaster has now asked questions such as "how many people believe my side"

And she had life stuffs and/or biology stuffs.
Medicine is hard. Biology is (easy) hard from other people's perspectives.
I can attest to that.
^{Ahh Biology, my Tsundere buddy.}

It's been said- Leafsnail is incredibly competent at Mafia.
The idea that both LS and toaster are scum is a stretch, but if it's true I'd literally stand and applaud.
But either way, we have no evidence that OWM isn't scum- other than pointing a finger  at someone whose only real scumtell was an incredibly dodgy recycle on me.
And while Leafsnail isn't prone to making mistakes, it is rather uncommon for someone to claim cop on the first day.

As the Deathsword hammer has been stopped, I think I might as well change my vote.
toaster

Y u no explain.
Y u no see that DS =/= hammered? IT TAKES 7 TO HAMMER.

[Tiruin]

Also: SECOND DAY.
MOWE CLAIMED IN THE SECOND DAY.
>_>

[Leafsnail]

Could you make up your mind on your reads and hold them to what they are instead of attacking everyone who doesn't go against yours?

My list is Tiruin, MOWE/Toaster, Tawa and Objective.  This hasn't changed for a good while.

However I've to point out the implications it holds. Given my understanding of the point-system, would you also hold the truth to fact that my scumteam: those that I've been in contact with since the start of the game wouldn't rely on my advice?

Are you talking about Objective?  The role is substandard, certainly, but it at least has some relevance in the hands of scum.  I'll believe you misjudged the importance of the Alignment Cop role before I believe you wasted 9 points as a townie.

However I've to point out the implications it holds. Given my understanding of the point-system, would you also hold the truth to fact that my scumteam: those that I've been in contact with since the start of the game wouldn't rely on my advice?

That the latter claims of the day have been, in all sense, holding brevity overall?

Like you associating my pre-game talk with my now-game talk?
Like you saying Tiruin is an experienced player and a good one at that (pertaining to how sloppy my role is)--which only holds if we accept this idea as basis for the construction for my role?

Like how your only counter argument is that the scumteam switched and mixed their powers when in total contradiction the claims they have given, suck?

That's countering your own idea--and the basic idea of 'do not attract unwanted or overattention to thyself.' Could you give your revamped list of scummies now? Mine hasn't changed, by the way.

Firstly, changing your mind is not a scumtell.  Mafia members don't give a shit who gets lynched as long as it's not one of their team, and in this game I'd go further and say they don't give a shit unless it's their converter.  So they can just happily sit on the same lynch forever.

Secondly I haven't changed my scumlist at all since voting you.

Thirdly if you think those arguments are bad you will need some kind of response to them.

As the Deathsword hammer has been stopped, I think I might as well change my vote.
toaster

I can't deny the possibility, but it still seems sortof unlikely to me.  Throwing your converter into a 1v1 seems like an entirely needless risk.

Also: SECOND DAY.
MOWE CLAIMED IN THE SECOND DAY.
>_>

So what?

[Tack]

The second last person to claim, I believe.
But all the attention has gone to Deathsword.

[Tiruin]

However I've to point out the implications it holds. Given my understanding of the point-system, would you also hold the truth to fact that my scumteam: those that I've been in contact with since the start of the game wouldn't rely on my advice?

Are you talking about Objective?  The role is substandard, certainly, but it at least has some relevance in the hands of scum.  I'll believe you misjudged the importance of the Alignment Cop role before I believe you wasted 9 points as a townie.

Eyeeeahhh, like that debate we had that I was adamant on the importance of the alignment cop role in which I was pro-cop, right?
Like how MOWE got you as scum. :v
And it's not wasted. It is invested.

Just that you have no argument for kills as scum.

However I've to point out the implications it holds. Given my understanding of the point-system, would you also hold the truth to fact that my scumteam: those that I've been in contact with since the start of the game wouldn't rely on my advice?

That the latter claims of the day have been, in all sense, holding brevity overall?

Nah, it does hold since they seem to be giving themselves up to support you and/or, DS/Persus. It's in the relations between players that show that.
Which means 1/3 because obvscum anyway.

Firstly, changing your mind is not a scumtell.

...Of all people, I can't believe scum gets my point and posts it in public for apparency, >_>

Mafia members don't give a shit who gets lynched as long as it's not one of their team, and in this game I'd go further and say they don't give a shit unless it's their converter.  So they can just happily sit on the same lynch forever.

Err..ok?  They actually do give a...that. Because the powers are based around the player--they'd care if the player being lynched is a good one or has a good combination, as long as it isn't a direct detriment to their team.

Secondly I haven't changed my scumlist at all since voting you.

Goodie! That's ever since after you voted DS!
What about when you voted DS?

Thirdly if you think those arguments are bad you will need some kind of response to them.

I did. You're using the logic of pre-game post-game and metaknowledge regarding the player as your case.
I drop it entirely as it blinds people to what they want to see rather than what they are now seeing--and fortunately, I serve as a good example of that.

~face my amorphousness~

So what?

I was responding to Tack saying the first day or something.

The second last person to claim, I believe.
But all the attention has gone to Deathsword.

...Yeah, but she had life troubles since then, and explained herself quite clearly.
Why don't you explain yourself more on and against MOWE?

[Tack]

I had reservations and a general feeling of distrust. They have been aired.
But if I'm not allowed to use metagaming and player knowledge to help my decisions, I guess I can't see Tiruin buddying as a towntell instead of the scumtell it is.

I'm not here to throw around wild accusations, 4maskwolf style.
Just saying to keep your minds open. Until someone is confirmed, doubt them. Scum probably knew about next turn's LYLO before it was posted here, so all of the 1v1's are under suspicion.

[Tack]

Unless a hammer happens this day is going to last a while, so I'm happy keeping my vote on Toaster. Has more significance than a FoS

[Toaster]

Tack:

- OWM (now toaster) went back to active lurking, but toaster has now asked questions such as "how many people believe my side"

I guess that came out wrong, since I was setting up for a "if you think Leaf is scum why are you listening to a thing he says" line.  Tiruin, in particular, is wasting a lot of time on him.

And while Leafsnail isn't prone to making mistakes, it is rather uncommon for someone to claim cop on the first day.

The second last person to claim, I believe.

Are both of these referring to MOWE?  If so, that's a rather large mistake to make considering the timeframe of these two statements.

Also, how do you get OWM from MOWE?


Jim:  Let's assume for a second Tiruin is a lying converter.  If so, she isn't going to have Free, Protect, Inflate, and NK-Immune.  Native says these roles exist.  If not her, then who has them, or is Native lying?  Tiruin-scum really doesn't make much sense to me.



The more I read, the more I think it's Persus/Deathsword.  The biggest reason to NOT think that is Objective's vote here.  Leafsnail is shrewd enough to gambit that, but it implies close coordination in the scum chat in vote timings.  The only other serious possibility is Tawa since his claim and play are weak.  Leaf could easily be lying about receiving a second gift, so that doesn't condemn him a whole lot right there.


Tawa:  Why did you target Leafsnail?  Who do you think is the converter?

[Tiruin]

Ugh, I'll just vote Persus because the more this goes on, the less I see any probability of large amounts of suspicion being dropped on anyone. Seriously? My opinion is that the scumteam is all piling up on me because my role-combo is a huge treat to build upon. Only that in this writer's opinion, the cases against and built upon such an opportunity do not hold well.

The fallacy of playing according to reputation is pushed against me (or, the most prominent one that stands against me) in which Tiruin is a good, experienced player, why does she have a [bad] role combination?
And yet nobody has pushed any kind of accusation along th eline of...RiA'ing or whatever: the basis which was announced was the discrepancy between me being a good player, and the role that was given, and the generalization of 'scumteam switching roles'.
Which wasn't expounded upon.

Checking the list? Tawa, while under personal extension, has kept quiet as of recent note--though on whatever happens, I seriously doubt that he's scum (or if you suspect I'm scum, then therefore he should also be suspected due to TDS' scumtrap-ploy of announcing that I gave a Santa out--which is impossible, and he attested to missing Tiruin doing so. The middle ground is not a choice or option here.)

...In which my list of suspicions still stay adamant on those matters. There's a lot of confirmed people, but its in what's the discussion of today that racks up my sincerities.

I had reservations and a general feeling of distrust. They have been aired.
But if I'm not allowed to use metagaming and player knowledge to help my decisions, I guess I can't see Tiruin buddying as a towntell instead of the scumtell it is.

I'm not here to throw around wild accusations, 4maskwolf style.
Just saying to keep your minds open. Until someone is confirmed, doubt them. Scum probably knew about next turn's LYLO before it was posted here, so all of the 1v1's are under suspicion.

Interesting. So you don't believe that MOWE, being an IFC, targeted LS and got SCUM as a result?
That what little posts she has said, is under scrutiny, and proclaims her more as scum? What are your counter-facts here to state such? I believe she's proven town due to how she posted, what she posted, what ideals she picked, and compared to her miller-debate-note on D1--her attitude regarding her character build.

Aye, an open mind is a sound choice, but surely after all this you would've formed some conclusions, aye? Sticking to a neutral side at this point in game does not help. Towntells scumtells, Could I ask your list of reads, Tack?