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[Leafsnail]

I think the fact that it costs the same amount as Block might be a balance issue

[4maskwolf]

Or they could do the exact same thing but with more information.  And lynching Deathsword would give us a hell of a lot of information.  Tiruin flipping town gives us two obvscum, Objective and Leafy.  Tiruin flipping converter gives us MOWE and Objective, along with probably Tawarochir.  Tiruin flipping scum but not converter gives us Objective and Deathsword ONLY, because the MOWE play could have been a bluff to make us flip in circles.
One the other hand, lynching Deathsword as town gives us Tiruin, MOWE, Tawarochir, and Objective, lynching him as converter gives us Objective and Leafy, and lynching him as scum but not converter would give us Objective and Leafy, with the third scum unknown.

The only difference I see is that Tiruin has an actively awful claim while Deathsword has an unconfirmed one.

Bullshit.  Tiruin's claim is actually a lot stronger than Deathswords.  While it was a poor power combo choice on Tiruin's part, Deathsword claims to be sitting on ONLY hide and miller, which is a ridiculous combination to begin with.  He is an experienced player, and there is no reason for such a bad combo of abilities.  As a point of fact, hide is not a very useful ability in this game, because dodging night actions isn't worth as much as you think it might, particularly when half the night actions in the game are simply to neutralize the actions of others.

[Tiruin]

Jim

Tiruin, why are you voting Deathsword?

I'm trying to piece together what 4mask is saying with my notes. Matching NF's list: Aiming for the converter.

This isn't an explanation.

Unvote

Could you make it look any more like a bandwagon? You vote Deathsword at the last minute, and then when the extension rolls around you unvote.

Why are you voting Objective? He has Changeling for anything else. Not prioritizing the possible converter there, I assume?

Maybe you missed the part where he was scum and there was less than an hour left in the day when I voted.

Given my scumlist, DS is a vague variable amongst us all-and yeah, I'm unsure--what does that tell you?

Sure enough to vote for him at the last minute.

Tiruin. I just remembered how much Tiruin was cackling about role choices and combinations in the pregame. Look at this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

MWAHAHAAHAHAAA
WIN

Tiny query: Can one take as many flaws as one likes?

Unless anyone can convince me that would be a really bad idea, I don't see why not.

"Psst, hey scumbuddy, I'll take Cleanse and Protect and you take the kill and all them flaws (probably with Prolific) and I'll hit you tonight, K?"

>:3

I think you are going to get some seriously broken gameplay here.

Because seriously. +11 flaw-points are overkill. o_O
Perhaps limit the # of flaws?

[insert evil laughter here]

She was thinking about this stuff, but come gametime, she derps out and picks a horrible, redundant, and suboptimal build.

I find this difficult to believe. Basically there's no way her build happened as claimed.

...Seriously? I don't.

Ugh. Jim. Why are you being so DENSE.
I mean, using PREGAME NOTES in making a CASE?!
Goddamn.

Out of all the smart things I expected from you. I get...what is this Jim?!

I will not answer this trivial hogwash.
Hey, snarykypants. Try to explain why 'this isn't an explanation' before denouncing everything. Like, THINK for once.

But in case of your snarky answer: What did you expect as a Reaction? Something that would point you to scum/town? Here's my reaction: Anger at such crap someone I thought would actually think about making. In other words, I am surprised at how superfluous your thinking span is, of recent note.

Yeah. Take that as Tiruinscum being something. C'mon Jim. Think more.
^{Ooooh no, this is an appeal~}

You are scum, and VERY bad at it. You have done nothing but try to scare the town into lynching someone else, because you are AFRAID. NOBODY else has found a single hole in the logic, yet you take something that ISN'T EVEN RELEVANT to my argument and try to prove it false that way. Deathsword is the converter and YOU are trying to cover his ass. Now he is Persus, but the name change means nothing.

Ouch. >_>

And this is why I like talking to you, LS. You're particularly shrewd. You've been setting me up since the past note on that Santa gift, which nobody can confirm (due mainly to that you did claim Protect; Objective claimed Protect, being an implied confidant to the scumteam). And that I had a sucky build that would be more than tempting to undermine.

Why do you have such a sucky build again?  In any case I don't see what you're saying about Protect.  I got it last night and that claim doesn't clash with anyone else's.

Why don't you think again?
Count the # of Protects, claiming ignorance that Objective claimed Protect; I CLAIMED PROTECT TWICE does not validate YOUR LIE of having Protect.

Santa claim much, it ain't proveable and somehow, Jim's trying to cover your face with it without saying anything worth crap.

It's like he's defending you.

For my reads.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Tiruin: Misled everyone day one, lied about inflate and immune to night kills day two, claimed a blatantly contradictory role.  Scum.
mastahcheese: Haven't gotten any bad vibes off him.  Also doesn't fit into a Tiruin team.  Town.
4maskwolf: I found his sudden theory burst suspicious this morning, but I've realized since then that theory isn't as neat as I thought.  Probably town.
Jim Groovester:
Tack: Insanely scummy on day one.  Might just be a terrible player after all.  Town I guess.
NativeForeigner: Null, he hasn't been posting enough.  Doesn't make sense in a Tiruin team but could take her place, now that I think about it.  Neutral, I'd like to talk to him when he gets back.
Objective: Probably scum, it's difficult to think why TDS would lie in that way and it explains the lack of a fourth Bloodthirsty
OwnWorstEnemy: Lying scum
Deathsword/Persus13: Has barely posted, null.  4mask's theory made a lot of sense but it doesn't explain the Tiruin oddities.
Tawarochir: Lying scum
Jack A T: Town I guess?  His actions have mostly been ok and with Tack not in the scumteam I can't see much way for him to be in.
TheDarkStar: Probably town, see above.  I think a lot of his reasoning has been wrong but it seems mostly townie.

Y'know, I like how you love to appeal to recent notice. It's like your whole read of me denounces everything we've talked about, today, about me and just snips up the scummy parts for posterity. Especially when you check the obv-town/scum like Objective, MOWE, NF and TDS out of all.

[4maskwolf]

Did you find a logic hole Tiruin? I must have missed that. Please, enlighten me.

[NativeForeigner]

Ahh, the weekend of non-stop driving is finally over. Time to kick back and catch up on maf - HOLY SHIT, GUYS! Twenty pages over the weekend? You're making me want to cry...

I'm going to try to catch up and come up with something useful.

[Leafsnail]

You keep asserting that lynching Deathsword will give us more information but I honestly do not get any of the inferences you're drawing at all.  And Hide seems like an OK town choice (indeed, we already know a townie picked it).  Not great, but it at least gives the player a chance of wasting the scum conversion.  Unlike Tiruin's bizarre redundant role.

[Jim Groovester]

The only difference I see is that Tiruin has an actively awful claim while Deathsword has an unconfirmed one.

Bullshit.  Tiruin's claim is actually a lot stronger than Deathswords.  While it was a poor power combo choice on Tiruin's part, Deathsword claims to be sitting on ONLY hide and miller, which is a ridiculous combination to begin with.  He is an experienced player, and there is no reason for such a bad combo of abilities.  As a point of fact, hide is not a very useful ability in this game, because dodging night actions isn't worth as much as you think it might, particularly when half the night actions in the game are simply to neutralize the actions of others.

This argument against Deathsword applies just as equally to Tiruin. She's an experienced player, but she gets a pass because....................?????????????????????????

You're not exactly clear why Tiruin's apparent incompetence when selecting a role is somehow less offensive than Deathsword's.

Ugh. Jim. Why are you being so DENSE.
I mean, using PREGAME NOTES in making a CASE?!
Goddamn.

Out of all the smart things I expected from you. I get...what is this Jim?!

I will not answer this trivial hogwash.
Hey, snarykypants. Try to explain why 'this isn't an explanation' before denouncing everything. Like, THINK for once.

But in case of your snarky answer: What did you expect as a Reaction? Something that would point you to scum/town? Here's my reaction: Anger at such crap someone I thought would actually think about making. In other words, I am surprised at how superfluous your thinking span is, of recent note.

This is a lot of froth and spittle. More than I normally expect from you.

In any case, I've noted my suspicion towards your build for a while now, and I think it's relevant to note your villainous mastermindish attitude before the game and compare it to your 'oh drat i am le worst build picker ever oh noooooo~~~~' attitude now.

Count the # of Protects, claiming ignorance that Objective claimed Protect; I CLAIMED PROTECT TWICE does not validate YOUR LIE of having Protect.

You picked Protect, and then put Free on it. This is one count of Protect, one count of Free.

Leafsnail's Protect + Objective's Protect + Your Protect = 3 Protects, in accordance with the Fortune Teller list.

[Tiruin]

EBWOP

As I have stated before I believe you analysis was operating under a flawed assumption (that the converter could not claim powers that their partners have) and I'm not blindly trusting it.  Even if Tiruin herself does not have enough points according to her claim she could have simply claimed in some of the powers that someone else on her team had.

Leafsnail, let me shove this up your mouth and ask you politely to STATE FACTS, PROVE THEM.

I've given my whole debasing of your case--you've given me crap.

Given your intellectual prowess, I expected something more other than outright, blatant, baseless assumptions.

Tiruin's claim is a lot weaker than Deathsword's.  And if Deathsword does hide they won't convert anyone so who cares.

Leafsnail's claim is a lot weaker than [person's]. Sans any explanation. And if Leafsnail does hide, they won't kill him sans any use of infallible NIGHTKILL so who cares.
OH WAIT, CHANGELING!
You've very good at blowing off steam while ignoring your teammates in lieu of practically implicating other people.

Good thing that you can only lie so far.

The only difference I see is that Tiruin has an actively awful claim while Deathsword has an unconfirmed one.

Yes. I've an actively AWFUL claim.

Are you actually going to speak to me directly about it or do I have to receive flak and backhands from people who I thought actually think, huh?

But if Tiruin is town then you're scum and you're not going to recycle Deathsword.

How about: all the people who have bloodthirsty, of which there are several, pick up useful powers like BLOCK at the day end and use it on the offending players in the event that Tiruin ends up being town?

Also, mastahcheese has like eight points and no night powers. There's no reason he couldn't purchase Free Block and throw that out like candy.

How about all people who have infallible rolecop actually hit the prime suspects so we could have a bit of notice on them: Like me, Leafsnail, Deathsword and now probably Jim.

Also you did check on mastahcheese...right?

I think the fact that it costs the same amount as Block might be a balance issue

True :/ 3 point power to completely destroy another's point-build?
Hence why I suspected a scum-saboteur list early in game.

If Deathsword is scum, then yes, Tiruin is under suspicion.  But I hand you a scum, based entirely on logic, and you let Leafsnail talk you out of it.  The one who is the most obvious scum here, other than Objective.

WHAT.
Couldn't anyone EXPLAIN ANYTHING ANYMORE?!

It's like I'm talking to people with another language I'm totally missing while hearing what I want to hear.

Yes, Tiruin could be scum, but Tiruin is NOT the converter...  There is only ONE way she could be the converter

So which is it?

And if Deathsword isn't the converter, then I know exactly who is.

Who?

As I have stated before I believe you analysis was operating under a flawed assumption (that the converter could not claim powers that their partners have) and I'm not blindly trusting it.  Even if Tiruin herself does not have enough points according to her claim she could have simply claimed in some of the powers that someone else on her team had.

Yes, she could have.  And she is the ONLY other person who can be the converter.  But Deathsword is the more likely one, given his weak claim, and if he truly does have a hide gifted to him then he needs to die so he can't dodge death.  If he is not the converter, then you recycle Tiruin, and I nightkill her.  Then we know that you are innocent and MOWE is scum, because Tiruin converted her in the night.  Then we knock off MOWE and, because Tawarochir is almost certainly scum because you have been cleared, he dies too.  Then it is just Objective left.  And we win.  So if Deathsword dies, either way, the town has strong footing.  But if Tiruin dies and flips town, then we have no more to go off of, while the scum have the night to screw me over and the day to bamboozle us.

ONLY other person?
ONLY Other person?!

I just read you say that I'm UNLIKELY to be the converter!
bfbfbffbbffhbgjhfbgjfhbgjfhbgjfhbjfbjdblgjhbdjlhjhbjhfbdjhfbdjh

4mask What does anything you say here, explain those people you're mentioning?
Because I'm staring at the screen with a :| expression now.

Also what're you referring to by

One the other hand, lynching Deathsword as town gives us Tiruin, MOWE, Tawarochir, and Objective, lynching him as converter gives us Objective and Leafy, and lynching him as scum but not converter would give us Objective and Leafy, with the third scum unknown.

? Third scum pertaining to the one that got converted yesterday? Yea, let's assume that--but a 4th member would usually not lie in place of their town-abilities given that notice due to having no reason to lie (or in the least, give the scumteam tips on it--if they didn't communicate, it'll show).


PPE: YEAH TWENTY PAGES. LET ME CRY MORE.
Why do you cry...

Oh, let me get a nice note. Nobody even caught that my read list is stating people in exacts. I see terms like Town and Scum. Doesn't that make me scummy~

Did you find a logic hole Tiruin? I must have missed that. Please, enlighten me.

No I mean that you say that nobody has found a single hole in [Leafsnail's] logic. So what is your opinion regarding what I'm saying?

You keep asserting that lynching Deathsword will give us more information but I honestly do not get any of the inferences you're drawing at all.  And Hide seems like an OK town choice (indeed, we already know a townie picked it).  Not great, but it at least gives the player a chance of wasting the scum conversion.  Unlike Tiruin's bizarre redundant role.

Shall I bang my head against this wall and ask you to explain yourself?
Like, explain the first sentence?
You love doing this thing as scum. Say something wholly untangental to the idea at hand, denounce it, then shift the tone at the second sentence.

PPEJIM

The only difference I see is that Tiruin has an actively awful claim while Deathsword has an unconfirmed one.

Bullshit.  Tiruin's claim is actually a lot stronger than Deathswords.  While it was a poor power combo choice on Tiruin's part, Deathsword claims to be sitting on ONLY hide and miller, which is a ridiculous combination to begin with.  He is an experienced player, and there is no reason for such a bad combo of abilities.  As a point of fact, hide is not a very useful ability in this game, because dodging night actions isn't worth as much as you think it might, particularly when half the night actions in the game are simply to neutralize the actions of others.

This argument against Deathsword applies just as equally to Tiruin. She's an experienced player, but she gets a pass because....................?

You're not exactly clear why Tiruin's apparent incompetence when selecting a role is somehow less offensive than Deathsword's.

And you never said anything about me at all in selecting a role (especially regarding why I did so) other than this is fishy.

Anything. At all.

This is a lot of froth and spittle. More than I normally expect from you.

In any case, I've noted my suspicion towards your build for a while now, and I think it's relevant to note your villainous mastermindish attitude before the game and compare it to your 'oh drat i am le worst build picker ever oh noooooo~~~~' attitude now.

I just woke up, and see crap coming from you instead of an intellectual argument. Forgive me if I happened to format my post in such a way that you recognize it as aggravation.
I will be more blunt with you next time.

In any case, I've noticed that your suspicion is in brevity, and I think it's revelant that you actually make a case from what I said beforehand and not use such things pre-game that I can't defend against (really. Think about this for once.) as a case-basis.

Using that as a clue to my attitude? Oh now, Jim. You fail to see the implications just had just by you assuming it. If you're scum, then that's low but I'm starting to realize just how low scum players can get in this game.

At least Leafsnail is doing it with some flair. You just kick straight below the belt.

[Tiruin]

Also Jim, before you reply, I'd like you to follow up on that list of reads for one.

Because your resume in the current lurkertracker doesn't help at all. It's full of brevity, and a vote list of PLuke, Objective, then Me.
YES. So you know my build is crappy. What're you going to do about it?

What do you think of it from a town-perspective? What about a scum perspective?
^{Three words: Tiruin is stupid~ wherein the adjective can be replaced by anything with a negative connotation to the person's thought process.}

[Jim Groovester]

YES. So you know my build is crappy. What're you going to do about it?

Well, now I'm going to program for the next twelve hours, so probably not a lot.

[Tiruin]

Unvote

Could you make it look any more like a bandwagon? You vote Deathsword at the last minute, and then when the extension rolls around you unvote.

EBWOP:
Hey, Jimminy. Why don't you explain your full read list so that we've something tangible than your superficial snarks to base on, huh? You stated, and as said, voted Objective before day end, stating a blatant 'OH FUCK THIS I CAN'T FIGURE THIS OUT IN AN HOUR'

Oh fuck it I can't figure this game out in an hour.

Objective because he's scum at least. Not so sure about Deathsword or Leafsnail. Probably Leafsnail too.

Unless you're going to call my wording wrong again.

HEY! What about explaining yourself for once? All I see is brevity regarding whatever you said! That would help, right?

PPE:
...Have fun programming!

[NativeForeigner]

NativeForeigner: I can't recall anything that he has done, but that's not unusual for him. Null read.

I'm definitely working on that...

NativeForeigner: Fuggin' genius that gave us the ability list. Town.

Honestly, I just figured it would be the best way to be useful since I couldn't guarantee my attention.

Speaking of, these last twenty pages are a mess. I've read them all, but I'm gonna have to go back and re-read them. Hopefully I'll have a vote by later tonight

[Leafsnail]

Tiruin: brevity is a positive quality.  If you can say all you want to say in a few paragraphs that's a good thing.

The fact that you seem to think that spending hours and hours responding to each and every one of your points is a prerequisite of engaging with you is really annoying, by the way, and I still suspect you're using it as a shield.  Earlier on I questioned you about your day one lying, and you sent point after point at me until I gave up in exasperation.  Now I'm pretty sure you're doing the same to Jim, just because he voted you.

Again, Tiruin, the case against you is very simple.
1. Your role clearly contains needless redundancy.  That is, your role that started by picking up powers that somewhat protect it from kills then decided to pick up a power that completely shielded it from kills.  One or the other should have been sufficient.  This is on top of the fact that kill immunity/protections are close to useless for townies anyway, considering that the scum will obviously never use a kill.  You could have spent the rest of your points on something actually useful instead.
2. This is in spite of Tiruin being a highly experienced player who obviously understands basic role interactions.  Note that this point implies respect for you as a player.  This means that I simply cannot accept the vague claim of ignorance that is your sole line of defense.  What were you actually trying to do with this role?  If you can't answer that then I don't see how you can be town.

There is no need to drag in all these irrelevant points you seem to want to make (indeed you seem to have misunderstood a lot of the things you were replying to - most of them are directed specifically at points 4mask was making).  For instance, this post:

You keep asserting that lynching Deathsword will give us more information but I honestly do not get any of the inferences you're drawing at all.  And Hide seems like an OK town choice (indeed, we already know a townie picked it).  Not great, but it at least gives the player a chance of wasting the scum conversion.  Unlike Tiruin's bizarre redundant role.

Is basically saying exactly what you are: I don't understand where 4mask is drawing all these conclusions about who has to be scum based on each flip.

[Persus13]

Tiruin, you are being way too panicky. I've seen you get mad at town for piling on you with little evidence, but this feels different. You're freaking out about the fact that Jim and Leafsnail are voting you as if this game will be lost if they succeed in lynching you. This and the fact that both Jim and Leafsnail bring up good points leads me to believe you are the converter.

[Tiruin]

Tiruin: brevity is a positive quality.  If you can say all you want to say in a few paragraphs that's a good thing.

Right. K.

Tiruin: brevity is a positive quality.  If you can say all you want to say in a few paragraphs that's a good thing.

The fact that you seem to think that spending hours and hours responding to each and every one of your points is a prerequisite of engaging with you is really annoying, by the way, and I still suspect you're using it as a shield.  Earlier on I questioned you about your day one lying, and you sent point after point at me until I gave up in exasperation.  Now I'm pretty sure you're doing the same to Jim, just because he voted you.

No. Essence of his post. Not that he voted me.
Not using 'my words/[psts' as shield. Useless waste of time and effort. Smokescreen? Please don't assume that.

Again, Tiruin, the case against you is very simple.
1. Your role clearly contains needless redundancy.  That is, your role that started by picking up powers that somewhat protect it from kills then decided to pick up a power that completely shielded it from kills.  One or the other should have been sufficient.  This is on top of the fact that kill immunity/protections are close to useless for townies anyway, considering that the scum will obviously never use a kill.  You could have spent the rest of your points on something actually useful instead.

Yes, I get how stupid I am in making my role. Woohoo.
Problem: "Fact" = not a fact. Not useless for townies. Stops scum from winning unless they have daykill-forces a waste of points on them and/or gets recycler's/converter's attention towards them. Is target dummy.
Haha, dummy.
Yes. I wasn't thinking. That's me. But back then, I did not know what exactly is useful-so prepared for worst.
[Argument basis: Against 'scum will obviously never use a kill--personal opinion? Against such wording. 'Never', 'obviously', setting off alarm bells. Probable understatement/undermining of case? Assumed.]

2. This is in spite of Tiruin being a highly experienced player who obviously understands basic role interactions.  Note that this point implies respect for you as a player.  This means that I simply cannot accept the vague claim of ignorance that is your sole line of defense.  What were you actually trying to do with this role?  If you can't answer that then I don't see how you can be town.

Personal wish to not appeal to experience of reputation. Even heroes can fall.
Is humbled by respectful demeanor. Is astounded at your play. As in.
Agreeable interface. It is plausible.
What I was actually trying to do? Think ahead: Protect/Free Protect really helps in stopping any NK (as compared to day protect as it targets others). Protect Immune gives that I can't be killed in such a way. Why not Day protect despite getting Magnetic? I restate what is said before--I thought more of the point-buy than efficiency and that I really, really wished tot arget others isntead of self. Should've picke d day protect instead of free protect. Opinion portion//debatable idea//'Fluff' perceived: I actually had Hardcore beforehand until I got Immune to NK. So it lef me with 1 extra point. Figued Inflate would be a good spend so I could delay any counter-buys during the procfeeding days.

That is as far as I can holistically explain myself regarding that.

Tiruin, you are being way too panicky. I've seen you get mad at town for piling on you with little evidence, but this feels different. You're freaking out about the fact that Jim and Leafsnail are voting you as if this game will be lost if they succeed in lynching you. This and the fact that both Jim and Leafsnail bring up good points leads me to believe you are the converter.

Assumption. Connection. Conventional logic. Yes, the game will be lost if they succeed.
Or in the least: The game will be harder if I die-converter gets a free-off, Objective can Changeling our Killer. They can Recycle off another person for points, buy convert perhaps. Win when they outnumber town due to mass-voting.
We don't have cleanse. We don't have curse. We don't have any kind of healing powers that counter this notion except for killing either lethal roles of recycle/convert.
That's what I'm panicking about and not solely because of the point that people are voting me.
Baseless assumption. Superficial assumption. Trivial assumption.
Though I like Leafsnail and am sorry to both of them for my behavior. Not conducive to how I want to see myself and who I am, myself. They are respectful people. I am humbled. I am shamed. I am sorry.
Please don't take this as an appeal when it's the truth. Just push it aside when thnking about my alignment.

I would state mre things but they're irrelevant.

Persus Please state what points help you conclude or believe that. Then state or search if there are any contradicting points to it. List strengths of each. Also read-list if you're able.