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[Tack]

Jack A T -> 4maskwolf

For those who cbf.

[Jack A T]

Quick post before breakfast and class (I'll get significant content in later):

I carried out a flavour inspect on Tack in the day.  Tack wears fine robes and an elaborate curled wig, speaks in a loud, booming voice, and is very careful to be exact in all his doings.  He also has an authoritative bearing that sets him apart from the assorted low-lifes in this room.

This seems consistent with Tack's day 1 claim of blatant infallible alignment cop: loud, judgey, very careful to be exact in all his doings, and not a miller.

My night action, I shall keep to myself for now.

Common practice in regular games for players who are millers are that they should claim D1. This is an irregular game--though as of note, people have the choice to be a miller for a bonus point DURING THE START ONLY, compared to any other game: for benevolence or increase in abilities. The context, as far as I recall on this unspoken rule is on the idea between...Bookthras, before?

Claiming miller, as scum, is really hard to push forward with--I do recall that the unanimous consensus of the B12 Mafia-playerbase voiced their matters on this (I remember it a game with Hapah, Dariush and the rest where scum won, and the two mentioned in this parenthesis were the scum) that miller claiming is a towntell-forwarding what you say here, Jack.

Your second statement follows through, however this is where my opinion diverges. Miller = +1 point; both for scum or for town. In that sense it is a player choice as opposed to a moderator decision in which most games this rule is enforced, is announced.  Counterpoint to that is the Innocent auto, which takes -1 from the point base, which means a detriment to scum. We can all agree that its a thing only scum would do, aye? I say that the claiming of miller does not directly say a town-point on their note due to the bonus it confers given that context of a player choice.

Tiruin: I see one small problem with your argument that taking miller gives +1 point to scum too (I hope I'm understanding your argument correctly): they can't take miller.  It's not a choice available to them, and the flaw even gets removed if they manage to steal it.  The +1 point, thus, is something townies can have that scum may need to fake.  The mere existence of the miller flaw is detectable.

EBWOP because post =/= preview

Why would you like to know, 4mask?

So that you don't screw with things.  Anybody with blatant should be questioned, and the fact that there was no kill last night is highly suspicious.  For what better way to hide in plain sight than to take a blatant convert, because nobody would think the scum would do that, eh, Tiruin.

4maskwolf: So, if anybody with blatant should be questioned, why are you not questioning me?  I know my night action was not initially visible, but my day action was.

[Tiruin]

Cont'd (the problem with RL for me is that I don't state my reason being RL. :I) This was part of the post yesterday.


Leafsnail

PFP.

There is basically no reason for townies not to pick miller.  Alignment Cop is pretty much worthless anyway and that extra point could confirm you as not scum (as well as increasing you power).

Basically none? Uh huh.
And pretty much worthless? I like your values! You don't think that it can be used in a way to check those who didn't claim miller?

@Tiruin: prolific and bloodthirsty seem like the best for townies.  Prolific lets you do twice as much and bloodthirsty is a reliable point stream.  Don't wamt to give the mafia too much advice but  Ressurection is clearly great for them.  PFP

No it does not. Well, bloodthirsty does not due to the inane characteristics it has or requires to gain a damn point. In that idea, and in the name alone, is the root of flippancy and vote-fallibility.

Why is bloodthirsty a 'best' thing for townies, in the large picture, Leafy?

Tawa

So, why the heck did *everyone* pick Miller?

4maskwolf: Which would you fear more: scum with a daykill, or scum with a dayconvert?  Why?

Hi Jack.  I've never played with you before, this should be interesting.
I would fear a daykill more, because it can't be protected against, but I would fear the night convert more, because converts are really powerful.

Also, like Jack, I chose Miller.

Did you *really* pick Miller, 4maskwolf, or are you scum?

...How does that later question help anything, in your opinion?
Next: +1 point. :v
What's your idea on Millers in the long-run, Tawa? Given that it's a player-choice, I'd like to see what your insight on the matter is with them as a whole.

PLuke

I chose the can't-vote flaw, but not the miller flaw. So you should be able to check that I am not a maffia, if you don't get redirected.
Looking back, I probably should have taken the miller too, if everyone else took it anyway.

Jack: what drives you to be interested in particularly the people you have questioned?

This speaks more like a plea to innocence rather than anything (and as another statement: someone appearing innocent [NOT THE AUTO] in wording)
Did the note of people having the Innocent trait cross your mind there?


TDS

TheDarkStar: Hypothetical: You are scum.  There are three other players left, all townies.  It is night.  You do not have convert.  Who do you kill: the townie who has a mild scum read on you, the lurking townie, the townie who has a mild town read on you, or nobody?  Why?

I kill the lurker. Why? The guy who thinks I am town will side with me. The guy who doesn't will act scummy by claiming that I am scum.

That assumes I didn't mess up badly somewhere. If I did, I'd leave the lurker alive, especially if he was new, and gt him lynched later.

I am a miller.

Interestingly enough, it's possible that one of us is already dead from a daykill; two if someone is explosive.

...My word parser is a bit broken on this one, but is your last statement connected at all to the question poking at you above?


Mr. Cheese

Tiruin

mastahcheese: How will you judge people for your vote? As in, what do you value: Their abilities, their way of logic, or their scumhunting skills?

How will I judge people for my vote? Hmm, well if you look at the "not voting" section, you will notice that I am not on the list.
I cannot vote, however I will make every attempt to still scumhunt and convince others to vote for who they find scummy, and I will be sure to make plenty of FoS's on people.
Abilities: A person's abilities can mean a lot, but telling the difference from a scum and a wanna-be Vig is hard. So it depends on the situation.
Logic: I think that the logic someone uses is the most important thing to look for. If I see someone try to raise a BS argument, I'll point it out.
Scumhunting: This is the one I'm the least sure about, it's hard to tell the difference from scum-hunting, and scummy attempts at incrimination.

What are your own thoughts on the matter?

*checks*
Oh huh. Query on that matter: You do know that the vote is town's best weapon in lieu of having a kill, yes? Why did you make the choice not to vote? A recycle costs 3, a full cleansing costs 3, and with the note of a 50% wastepoweronself flaw, it's quite a complex idea to put together, if I infer some tactics on your point.

Anyway: My thoughts on the matter fall on scumhunting. Firstly: Metaknowledge comes into play in regard to the people playing, in this very game--in the sense that the general gist of how that person would behave would carry on in how they would structure their Mafia-character here. Abilities becomes player-manual, meaning that the player has full control of their ideal role.
So my thoughts? They're amorphous on the matter, but I directly point out the principle of scumhunting as my foremost idea regarding judging people.


Post-edit: This was done riiight till Jim's point here.
In which I come back after a few hours and see blots from PLuke and the whole VOTEVOTEVOTE on him.

[Tiruin]

Flippin' net. :I

Tiruin: I see one small problem with your argument that taking miller gives +1 point to scum too (I hope I'm understanding your argument correctly): they can't take miller.  It's not a choice available to them, and the flaw even gets removed if they manage to steal it.  The +1 point, thus, is something townies can have that scum may need to fake.  The mere existence of the miller flaw is detectable.

...Really? Wh-
...
Ah. >_>
And by that Ah, I mean more of, "Ah, the post got snipped from the next paragraph' than 'Ah, stoopid selective memory not checking that note on NQT's words'.

Con't to that. (but...mostly inconclusive given that note I missed, spoilered due to that)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Another note on Millers are the psychological factor. The B12 community, and even the new players (thus inferred, all players going along the unspoken rule) have a code of honor to follow. They aren't the cheap 'DO TO WIN' people (and really, Dariush was one of those I considered to be those guys, and he stood as the forefront on the matter which I'll explain later on). The code of honor goes with stating the proof of being a miller or not, which is directly related to how a person 'proves' him/herself during the day game. The basis is that it gives the gist of being town-leaning, but in this game and given that it is a player-choice, is a null tell in that context of free choice.

From a scum perspective, they have nothing to lose given the current stuffs given and bloody heck-all to gain. Given the setup, one usually infers that the scumteam, the number of 3, will be a power-team classified as either "2 support, and 1 mastermind", or whatever detail that follows in making a deadly team--related to this topic in how millers play out. We've got newbies who aren't necessarily knowledgeable in the culture here, or in regard to the values related to being a Miller.

What I'm saying is due to my first time in seeing Miller-claims. I thought to myself, 'hey, as scum I'll just claim Miller if such presents itself'. Doing so was not attached to any moral or any such boundaries, but that the attachments to why I claimed it is due to the essence of the game: Scumhunting. This is also another factor on why I consider miller-claims to be neutral-tells (and only valued by one who has an alignment cop power--in this context, a choice rather than a role-enforced option).

So yeah.

[Tack]

For what better way to hide in plain sight than to take a blatant convert, because nobody would think the scum would do that, eh, Tiruin.

WIFOM

I find it pretty likely for Tiruin to be scum.
Indeed Tiruin was who I was nvestigating last night.
But the fact I still have my points, and as day actions resolve immediately, means that she obviously isn't whichever scum is running recycle/DaySap, so I think in this case it's more "the squeaky townie gets the noose".

...Scum, explicitly? You suspect scum, compared to anyone else and without any...'seemingly' or that kind of word (well, that means the recycle thing--it could also be town target [but a bad one at that sans any details on the recycle-r side])?

Also, what? Reword on the last sentence please. Why did you target me, by the way?

The whole first paragraph is really disjointed, so please come back with real questions.
However, "The squeaky wheel gets the oil" is an idiom. My last sentence was a play on it.
People who post more get voted on more, until someone pops their head up and notices the lurkers

[Tiruin]

...You really need to reword your paragraph structure. I can't get what you're referring to. But I get your point on my wording. :v

What I meant by scum, explicitly is that you mention scum

But the fact I still have my points, and as day actions resolve immediately, means that she obviously isn't whichever scum is running recycle/DaySap, so I think in this case it's more "the squeaky townie gets the noose".

here, but don't also see that as a general town-play instead (or rather, put wording to indicate so).

However, "The squeaky wheel gets the oil" is an idiom. My last sentence was a play on it. People who post more get voted on more, until someone pops their head up and notices the lurkers

...The orange is the meaning of the purple, yes?
I'd argue that that's just a generality, and a shallow one at that. It's what's in the post that matters on why the vote lands on the person, sans anything other factor like voter preference or motive.

[Tack]

Actually no, the original meaning of the purple is that someone who complains a lot gets their way more often.

Also, I doubt there'd be a townie who would just start recycle-sapping other randoms. It puts all of the eggs in one basket, and they'd need to get prolific just to offset the usefulness of the single person they targeted.
Simply put, I don't think a townie would be dumb enough.

But I could see someone who claimed to have a "brilliant possible scumteam setup" to be able to make it work.

So by my reckoning, one of the inactives will be the scum with the recycle-sap, and the rest of the mafia must be getting pretty annoyed at them.

Oh by the way, I can't buy new skills until the end of this day, apparently. So If someone has day-protect, not giving these 6 points to the mafia sounds like a great idea.

[Tack]

In fact, even trying to put forward the completely far fetched idea that a Townie targeted a person who had claimed Infallable Blatant cop, with a move like recycle which takes precedence over protect is a massive scumtell in itself.

What possible reason would a townie have to stop a possible cop from making their action at night, Tiruin?
Seriously I'm giving you leeway because I think aforementioned emotions and life might have you way off your game, but you started day 2 by haemorrhaging tells, and you still haven't fully righted the ship. I'd be tempted to think you're a suicidal convert.

[Tiruin]

Also, I doubt there'd be a townie who would just start recycle-sapping other randoms. It puts all of the eggs in one basket, and they'd need to get prolific just to offset the usefulness of the single person they targeted.
Simply put, I don't think a townie would be dumb enough.

True there, so its best to infer that its a scum-ploy. Or that the mindset of the user is that of a Vigilante-type. Target the person you find most-scummy overall, in which you don't rank as such in my eyes.

Oh by the way, I can't buy new skills until the end of this day, apparently. So If someone has day-protect, not giving these 6 points to the mafia sounds like a great idea.

...
NQT: Given that

Inflate
Hide
Bus
Block
Redirect
Randomise
Recycle*
Point Share
Gift/Santa
Changeling
Protect
Sap

Sap is below Protect, what does Protect...protect against?
Also, do player-choices on skill-getting take precedence over said player being sap'd?

So by my reckoning, one of the inactives will be the scum with the recycle-sap, and the rest of the mafia must be getting pretty annoyed at them.

...This is a long-shot o_O
Why an 'inactive'? What do you mean by inactive--and why the inactive with that explicit combination?

PPE

In fact, even trying to put forward the completely far fetched idea that a Townie targeted a person who had claimed Infallable Blatant cop, with a move like recycle which takes precedence over protect is a massive scumtell in itself.

What possible reason would a townie have to stop a possible cop from making their action at night, Tiruin?
Seriously I'm giving you leeway because I think aforementioned emotions and life might have you way off your game, but you started day 2 by haemorrhaging tells, and you still haven't fully righted the ship. I'd be tempted to think you're a suicidal convert.

Let me specify my answer to:

What possible reason would a townie have to stop a possible cop from making their action at night, Tiruin?

...How would they know you're a cop until you say that you're a cop?
And given that you claimed you were sapped, how are you able to (and rather, just did-given your wording) confirm that I show up as scum?

Also on that last one? RL does take precedence (and I am loathe to bring it in as my sole reason--but in truth, that is my sole reason given that I've...gone under a really bad thing as of late. It begins with intrusive thoughts of something beginning with s and ending with e. But it's over now. And obviously using RL as a sole reason puts things waaay out of Mafia bounds so hence why I don't say stuffs like that. However I did post everything as mentioned yesterday [woohoo, USB] up there, though a bit squiggly at best in format, but its all there. :v)

[notquitethere]

Tiruin

Sap is below Protect, what does Protect...protect against?
Also, do player-choices on skill-getting take precedence over said player being sap'd?

Protect only protects against killing. The buying phase is between the Day and Night phases. If a player gets sapped during the day, they will only have one experience point to spend at the end of that day (assuming they don't have dense and they don't die during the day).

[Tack]

Wait, so protect doesn't help against conversions or sapping?
... I guess it was only a matter of time before one of these rules made it harder for townies.

Tiruin: ifrelevant, as I stated I was a cop on D1.
Jack A T staked me out and described my role (Magistrate) perfectly, so I'm given to believe that either he's a townie, or a Mafia who has wasted a lot of points in order to get the heat off himself.

Jack A T: what's the flavour on whoever you've scanned today?

[Tiruin]

I searched for magistrate and couldn't find it.
...
But I did miss where you claimed your powers.
...
Though I do wonder why you claimed straight.

Why did you claim, there?
Where did Jack describe your role perfectly?

[Tiruin]

EBWOP (ugh)

Jack A T: It is actually possible to enter the Mafia forums whilst being logged out. I don't know if anyone would seriously expend that much effort, but never close your mind to the improbable.

It perfectly is.
That's how I get my notes while being busy. Granted, I do believe I got my inspiration from Vector, before, as this is how she does her work as far as I remember.
Don't log in-the other threads you post in where you're having fun in are tempting...

[4maskwolf]

Alright, time for me to go through the list of things that Jack could have done to me and their results:
Scan: 1 point
Count: 3 powers and autos
Randomise: nothing, I am blatant but didn't take a night action
Protect: Dunno, did anyone try and kill me?
Flavour inspect: wouldn't you like to know?
Track: Nothing, I'm blatant and took no action
Redirect: Nothing
Block: Nothing
Bus: Nothing
Ability cop: Wouldn't you like to know?
Alignment cop (normal): scum
Alignment cop (infallible): town
Kill: Well, I should have died, shouldn't I have?

[Jack A T]

Alright, let's see what we've got here.

Tawarochir: So, about yesterday...A few quick questions: did it not occur to you that perhaps I wanted answers to my questions?  Why leap in with a "What Jack said" hammer?  What kind of justification for a bandwagon hammer is your target already having plenty of votes already?
Not related to suspicion: How much prior Mafia experience do you have, and from where?

I find it pretty likely for Tiruin to be scum.
Indeed Tiruin was who I was nvestigating last night.
But the fact I still have my points, and as day actions resolve immediately, means that she obviously isn't whichever scum is running recycle/DaySap, so I think in this case it's more "the squeaky townie gets the noose".

Tack: What are your reasons for suspicion?  What were your reasons for investigation?  Also, you keep on missing Tiruin's review request.

Jack A T: what's the flavour on whoever you've scanned today?

I haven't inspected anyone today.

Count: 3 powers and autos

4maskwolf: This is true.  1 power, 2 autos.  Now, I'm pretty sure you've got other stuff you need to post.  Particularly on your approach to a flaw called "blatant" and some questions asked about your approach.  Perhaps you will be willing to post about that, eh, instead of just popping on to the thread to list possible actions and then going offline?


Tiruin: This is going to be a bit long.

Oh, and I inflated Kill. :3
No I didn't but what would YOU like to know.
Actually, I totes did.

(Sups omitted)

Why would you inflate Kill?  Since mafia have access to the infinitely better Convert for one more it's basically a town ability.

...You seriously like taking my word at face value, huh.
No, I didn't inflate kill. I inflated Resurrect.

...what are you even doing, Tiruin?  Are you seriously making snarky remarks at Leafsnail for assuming you were making a serious claim when asking you why you took your claimed action?  Why did you lie about your action in the first place?

Quickpost

P-Luke is innocent.

Ah, that is the second or so post Tiruin did because life stuffs! I shouted out my best apparent opinion on the subject based on the notes I took while reading--not skimming--through the list. It is connected with the argument on Jack A T's theorem on Millers and whatever point-based planning was discussed earlier but also takes in the how and why people are judged. I didn't know he was town, if that's what you're assuming (and something more, I believe, my leafy friend?) but by better judgement, I inferred that he was townier than the rest.

I see a huge difference here between what you said and what you're saying you were thinking.  Namely, the latter is a statement of opinion.  You say you thought P-Luke was town, but did not know.

That is certainly not what you said Day 1.  What you said Day 1 was a statement of fact: P-Luke is innocent.  Such information would only be available to one group: the scum.  (While town infallible daycops could theoretically have had such information had NQT been handling day actions as he said they would be handled in the day action description, NQT was not.  Instead, NQT had all Day 1 actions take effect at the end of Day 1.)

What I got from your post was that you were faking an inspect.  There was no possible way town, aside from P-Luke could have the information you were claiming to have: knowledge that P-Luke was definitely town.   ...Then today, you say that you were just stating your opinion as if it were fact.  What.

...You're insinuating negatives over anything else, huh. But matters first, explicitly town?

Interesting wording.

Yes, it is quite interesting wording.  What I find most interesting about it is the fact that Leafsnail never used it.  In fact, your post here is the first use of the word "explicitly" in the entire thread.

On millers: My whole argument on millers was mechanical: they're not easy to fake, and only town can have the flaw.  The whole argument hinged on the NQT note you missed.  In a normal game, they would theoretically be nulltells if all people played optimally.  Here, they're mild towntells, due to mechanical difficulty for scum to fake.  Not overwhelming (not even close), but not perfect neutral.

Tiruin, I'd be voting you right now if your posts today hadn't been made in such a poor condition.  Right now, I want to see you, after you've rested and at least somewhat recovered, try to better explain your actions.  Why try to fake an inspect (and yes, I know you said it wasn't the main goal in that post, but still)?  Why state opinion as fact?  Why lie to everyone about your inflate target initially?  What exactly made you think P-Luke was town?

Oh, and because I brought it up: NQT: Would you be so kind as to tell us all how you handled Day 1's day actions, including when you would have theoretically processed them?