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[P-Luke]

P-Luke.  Your invitation for people to inspect you is extremely suspicious.  Theresults of a normal inspect are very easy for the scum to manipulate in this game, and townies do not normally focus on clearing themselves this hard.  Also I don't see why a townie would pick no-vote but not Miller.

You make it sound real good, but let me make a rebuttal!

You claim that every civilian should choose miller because there is basically no drawback. I disagree, because without miller a regular allignment cop could effectively see if you are a mafia player or a civilian. A good citizen will see this in advance, and not choose miller.
Of course the mafia players want to convince us that everyone chose miller - that way they do not have to justify the fact that they did not spend that one point on "innocent". So let's have a look at what mafia players WOULD choose:
0) (5 points) starter points
1) (+2 point) unable to vote (like I did, yes), because you have a whole team who can work together to influence the others
2) (+1 point) hardcore
Which gives mafia players 8 points.
They will want a kill (6) with silent (1) and clear-minded(1) because of the cheapness of randomise. Or they can go the sneakier path of convert (7) with clear-minded(1). Either way they don't want to spend points on innocent.

Now there might be one mafia player who goes the "bastard" mode, picking randomise or changeling with tons of flaws, but this will probably be the "main" build. If I were mafia, I would definately decide that we should just convince everyone that all townies picked miller.

Now why do I specifically take these flaws? Because the other flaws are not an option for the mafia. dense means you can not get any better over time, and can not be mixed with mercenary either. mercenary also prevents you from getting any better over time. blatant would be the stupidest thing ever for maf, because as soon as the maf kill or convert someone their identity is broadcasted. unreliable would men that you can waste a kill or convert, which is obviously bad in a game that is likely to have only a few rounds of play. And magnatic would be the same as unreliable, except that you could even end up shooting yourself in the head.

[Leafsnail]

@4maskwolf: I have made two substantive attacks, which I think is plenty of content for like 3 hours into a game.  Out of my other posts one is a direct response and the other two relate to an important discussion that could easily identify scum.

[P-Luke]

Fuck it, I'm talking about millers.  Tawarochir seems to have trouble with them too.

Common practice for millers is to claim day 1 (or at least before you are inspected).  This means that any plain alignment cops (which I hope nobody is, because they suck here, but I recognize someone may have picked it) know exactly what you inspect as and don't have to waste an inspect on you.  Scum can fakeclaim millers somewhat easily in most games, which means that miller claimers are not exempt from suspicion (not even close).

This game is unusual, in that townies could choose to be a millers for an in-game, detectable, benefit.  In addition, there are several inspector types that can find millers or signs of said milleriness (scanners, counters, ability cops, infallible alignment cops, and possibly flavour inspectors).  Thus, there was little reason for townies not to take miller, and miller claims are unusually hard to fake.

Of course, there are ways to interfere with miller inspections (not going to list them, but they're not that hard to figure out), but those take points, time, and actions.

In your last line, you say that there are ways to interfere with inspections, but they cost points/time/actions and are thus a wild inconvenience for mafia. I say all townies knew about this from the start, and now the maf players are trying to convince us that we were "stupid" for not realising immediately that "everyone will pick miller". I can't vote because I have the flaw, but as you said in your own post: "fuck it".

Jack

edit: Also, NQT: do we get any info whatsoever about how many mafia there are? I've never played a game without knowing numbers before.

[Leafsnail]

I don't see how what you said rebutts my argument.  In particular I haven't heard a good reason why a townie would pick non-voter (although you did explain why the mafia would??) over Miller.

I do hope the mafia went with a build as uncreative as that because they would be steamrolled in that case (in reality they could easily have a once per phase conversion).  Even if they did though, they could still take Innocent at any time with the point they get for surviving the day.  Meaning that the alignment cop role is totally worthless because it can't clear townies or damn scum at all.

[Tawa]

Tawarochir: Do you believe that a night kill or a night convert is more likely for the scum, and why?
Leafsnail: You accuse others of having posts of little content, yet many of your posts end up being rules semantics.  Three out of five, in fact:

@Tawarochir: There are two advantages to picking miller,and basically no drawback.
1.You get an extra point
2.You get an extra point that mafia members can't get

The benefits of the first are obvious.  The second is more subtle, but it means the mafia would have to try and fudge the extra point they didn't get from Miller.  Or not claim miller and cast suspicion on themselves.

The drawback is minimal because Alignment Cop is a terrible ability anyway.  Mafia can dodge it for one point, and the miller ability means they don't even need to do that.  Any player who wants to play detective should go with Infallible for one point more (which ignores Miller) or Ability Cop for the same price (which is actually better when all townies have miller).

PFP.

There is basically no reason for townies not to pick miller.  Alignment Cop is pretty much worthless anyway and that extra point could confirm you as not scum (as well as increasing you power).

@Tiruin: prolific and bloodthirsty seem like the best for townies.  Prolific lets you do twice as much and bloodthirsty is a reliable point stream.  Don't wamt to give the mafia too much advice but  Ressurection is clearly great for them.  PFP

I'd guess a night kill. A night convert would probably raise a lot of suspicion in a short period of time due to someone rapidly changing mood, while a night kill could be ambiguous, since anyone could have a kill.

[TheDarkStar]

TheDarkStar: Hypothetical: You are scum.  There are three other players left, all townies.  It is night.  You do not have convert.  Who do you kill: the townie who has a mild scum read on you, the lurking townie, the townie who has a mild town read on you, or nobody?  Why?

I kill the lurker. Why? The guy who thinks I am town will side with me. The guy who doesn't will act scummy by claiming that I am scum.

That assumes I didn't mess up badly somewhere. If I did, I'd leave the lurker alive, especially if he was new, and gt him lynched later.

I am a miller.

Interestingly enough, it's possible that one of us is already dead from a daykill; two if someone is explosive.

[Jack A T]

4maskwolf: To answer your question, night logic will be... interesting.  Unlike the chaotic, but fixed (generally), roles of BYORs, these roles are ever-changing.  Unlike BYORs, scum got to work together to make a high-power role combination, knowing exactly what they could have to counter.  In addition, I'm expecting odd behaviour, due to the number of people who look like they are not only people I don't recognize, but rather new as well.  I'm expecting more chaos than the average BYOR from the town side, but a well-organized scumteam.

And what town combinations do you think a townie should be most afraid of?

4maskwolf: Not so much combos as specific powers: kills, saps, randomizes, redirects, etc..  Good powers, but they have to be well-aimed.

Glorious Mafia Bland Plan omitted for post length

P-Luke: Or a scumteam member, coordinating with the others, can take the 3 point power Cleanse, allowing removal of any particularly bad flaws.  Heck, 6 point Day Cleanse.  Also, an infallible alignment cop only costs one more point than a basic alignment cop, and is much, much more effective.

In your last line, you say that there are ways to interfere with inspections, but they cost points/time/actions and are thus a wild inconvenience for mafia. I say all townies knew about this from the start, and now the maf players are trying to convince us that we were "stupid" for not realising immediately that "everyone will pick miller". I can't vote because I have the flaw, but as you said in your own post: "fuck it".

Jack

...what.  Your argument appears to consist of the following:
*All the townies knew that there exist costly, action-based methods of interfering with inspections.
*Ergo, real townies wouldn't take miller.
*Ergo, those claiming miller are mafia.
*Ergo, all arguments that millers aren't as terrible as you think they are are purely mafia trying to convince you that you're stupid.
Of course, you, as a good citizen, know that mafia "WOULD choose" a build that lacks any sort of inspection-irritating power, with perhaps one guy with randomize or changeling.

Somehow, I think that your argument isn't quite as good as you think it is.
On number of scum:

"Adventurers, my seers have discovered that amongst you are at least three hidden Djinn but we know not whom.

[notquitethere]

 P-Luke

edit: Also, NQT: do we get any info whatsoever about how many mafia there are? I've never played a game without knowing numbers before.

The game began with three scum. It was stated in the initial Character Creation post, but I could have been clearer. Also, there are no 3rd party alignments.

[Teneb]

Short post, no time.

Yet another miller here.

So, Deathsword, what's your opinion on the high price of kill? Do you think the scum will pick it?

It's not that high, since all you really need is pick miller, which everyone did it seems. I assume they'd pick it, but then again they may be going for some other strategy. Becoming what is basically a cult is one that came to mind when first looking at the power list.

P-Luke: According to your argument, miller would be fake-claimed by mafia in order to make the inspects more difficult. Yet more than half the players claimed miller. Are they all mafia, then?

[notquitethere]

"You're a djinn!" accused one of the adventurers, wearing a floppy brimmed hat over his eyes.

"No, I'm just a naturally dodgy looking fellow," said the multi-headed monstrosity, slathering before him. Looking around, you see that he's not the only one.

Vote List
Tiruin
mastahcheese
4maskwolf
Jim Groovester
Tack [1] - Tawarochir
NativeForeigner
Objective [1] - Jack A T
P-Luke [2] - Leafsnail, Deathsword
MyOwnWorstEnemy
Deathsword
Tawarochir
Jack A T
Leafsnail [1] - Tiruin
TheDarkStar
No Lynch [1] - Tack

Not Voting: Jim Groovester, NativeForeigner, Objective, MyOwnWorstEnemy, TheDarkStar

[mastahcheese]

Tiruin

mastahcheese: How will you judge people for your vote? As in, what do you value: Their abilities, their way of logic, or their scumhunting skills?

How will I judge people for my vote? Hmm, well if you look at the "not voting" section, you will notice that I am not on the list.
I cannot vote, however I will make every attempt to still scumhunt and convince others to vote for who they find scummy, and I will be sure to make plenty of FoS's on people.
Abilities: A person's abilities can mean a lot, but telling the difference from a scum and a wanna-be Vig is hard. So it depends on the situation.
Logic: I think that the logic someone uses is the most important thing to look for. If I see someone try to raise a BS argument, I'll point it out.
Scumhunting: This is the one I'm the least sure about, it's hard to tell the difference from scum-hunting, and scummy attempts at incrimination.

What are your own thoughts on the matter?

Tawarochir

Mastahcheese, what are your thoughts on mid tier powers like Santa or Protect?

Well, for those two in particular, you wouldn't want to use them in people who you weren't sure about, so I'd be careful about people with, mostly for what else they may have. Someone with a protect power, and no way to determine allegiance, for example, may seem like they already know who to protect, ie, scum.

Why such a particular question?

Jack A T link

I am a miller.

Why would you even say this? This serves no purpose but to cause WIFOM.

4maskwolf

Also, like Jack, I chose Miller.

And you.

PPE: On second thought, after reading the arguments for taking Miller, I guess you guys have a point. No FoS
Nevermind.

Tawarochir

Did you *really* pick Miller, 4maskwolf, or are you scum?

But you, you get on 4mask, but not Jack, who claimed it first. Are you afraid of him for some reason?

But of course, I suppose that all this talk of suspicion on Miller claims is hypocritical of me, as I'm a miller, too, for the extra point.
Which would mean that the only people to not take miller, would be the actual scum.

Well, wait a minute, there is a point to taking a regular inspect, if you also take fortune teller, so that if you use fortune teller, and see no "innocent" powers, then you'd know that if someone did show up as town, then they'd be real town.
But that would be really convoluted, and might be just as expensive as just taking a penetrating inspect.

[Silthuri]

*cracks knuckles* Let's do this!
Tiruin:

MOWE:
Hi!
Given the nature of this game, what is your opinion on the flaw-system, and the differing powers available? Given the player list set before you--what do you generally expect from them?

Hello!
Hmm... I think the flaws and powers available are to make it more interesting because it gives the game a lot more variety. Other than that, I don't know. Given the player list, I expect some pretty interesting things will happen. We've got some veterans and some talented non-veterans. In general, I expect awesomeness.

So, why the heck did *everyone* pick Miller?

I didn't and I don't see why anyone should.
Everyone who chose Miller: What made you decide to take that as your flaw? What did you hope to accomplish?
Leafsnail:

PFP.

There is basically no reason for townies not to pick miller.  Alignment Cop is pretty much worthless anyway and that extra point could confirm you as not scum (as well as increasing you power).

The reason for them not to choose miller is to not confuse the hell out of each other and thus allowing the Alignment Cop to actually be somewhat useful. Did you choose miller?

[Tawa]

-fabulousnip-
Tawarochir

Did you *really* pick Miller, 4maskwolf, or are you scum?

But you, you get on 4mask, but not Jack, who claimed it first. Are you afraid of him for some reason?

But of course, I suppose that all this talk of suspicion on Miller claims is hypocritical of me, as I'm a miller, too, for the extra point.
Which would mean that the only people to not take miller, would be the actual scum.

Well, wait a minute, there is a point to taking a regular inspect, if you also take fortune teller, so that if you use fortune teller, and see no "innocent" powers, then you'd know that if someone did show up as town, then they'd be real town.
But that would be really convoluted, and might be just as expensive as just taking a penetrating inspect.

To be fair, I said that before I was aware that practically everyone took "miller".

[mastahcheese]

Everyone who chose Miller: What made you decide to take that as your flaw? What did you hope to accomplish?

I hoped to gain an extra point to spend. It worked quite well.
I didn't see it as a bad thing because I figured that the scum could simply take innocent, so it's not like inspections would be very trustworthy if I hadn't taken it, either.

To be fair, I said that before I was aware that practically everyone took "miller".

While a fair point, you fail to acknowledge the part where I asked why you didn't get on Jack for the exact same thing.

[Tawa]

Everyone who chose Miller: What made you decide to take that as your flaw? What did you hope to accomplish?

I hoped to gain an extra point to spend. It worked quite well.
I didn't see it as a bad thing because I figured that the scum could simply take innocent, so it's not like inspections would be very trustworthy if I hadn't taken it, either.

To be fair, I said that before I was aware that practically everyone took "miller".

What? Oh, that. I was trying to highlight both of them, it just kind of came out as only the wolf of four masks.

Sorry about that.
While a fair point, you fail to acknowledge the part where I asked why you didn't get on Jack for the exact same thing.