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[Tack]

No, you can't.
I've been operating on logic this whole time, because I know my reads are going to be inadequate. I'm too inexperienced. So rather than 'what she posted' I've been asking 'could she do it'. And she could've. So be cautious.

As for why I'm humouring Leafsnail- all information is information- regardless of what the want to, or feel like they are giving you.
Leafsnail couldn't respond to my answers with what was visible on the surface, or what was actually happening. So he had to dig up the third answer and give me that, for all of those questions. And none of them were answered truthfully: so it's narrowed down the current plans and lists of suspects.

[Tiruin]

No, you can't.
I've been operating on logic this whole time, because I know my reads are going to be inadequate. I'm too inexperienced. So rather than 'what she posted' I've been asking 'could she do it'. And she could've. So be cautious.

Could she do what?

No, you can't.

Yes I can.
List it greenhand.

[Toaster]

Tack:

No, you can't.
I've been operating on logic this whole time, because I know my reads are going to be inadequate. I'm too inexperienced. So rather than 'what she posted' I've been asking 'could she do it'. And she could've. So be cautious.

Wait, seriously?  You're voting me just because it's possible I'm the converter?  What about all the other people it's possible are the converter?

Please tell me I'm missing something and you're not just being dense.

[Tiruin]

Please tell me I'm missing something and you're not just being dense.

...To be honest, this must be said. I feel like this towards the recent you. :/

[Toaster]

There's dense and then there's lazy.

[Tiruin]

Oop :x I meant Tack, not you.
Figured you were busy IRL hence the slower posting speed.

[Toaster]

No offense taken!  I can certainly be dense (or hardheaded.)

[4maskwolf]

You two aren't going to start in at it again, are you?

If Native is scum, then anyone could be a possible converter.  If the scumteam decides to claim each other's abilities, then almost anyone could be a possible converter.  However, we know a few things for almost certain:

Tiruin has a blatant night ability.
There is a recycler
Jack A T has blatant day and night abilities
There are two day sappers
There is at least one santa
The convert likely exists, for reasons pointed out by Leafsnail (yes, I do read your arguments)

I'm probably missing something here, but whatever.

[Tiruin]

You two aren't going to start in at it again, are you?

I learned to love my pseudo-enemies and show no hatred because everyone in B12 is really, truly awesome. u_u
So yeah we are!

You two aren't going to start in at it again, are you?

If Native is scum, then anyone could be a possible converter.  If the scumteam decides to claim each other's abilities, then almost anyone could be a possible converter.  However, we know a few things for almost certain:

Tiruin has a blatant night ability.
There is a recycler
Jack A T has blatant day and night abilities
There are two day sappers
There is at least one santa
The convert likely exists, for reasons pointed out by Leafsnail (yes, I do read your arguments)

I'm probably missing something here, but whatever.

...Sure, let's also add Nobody got killed last night to that list if NF is scum.
Seriously? That means we'll have to build everything from the start: NF's Fortune Tell claim just sped up the process on the scumhunt and acted either like an early warning device, or a dud-to-check-people's-scummitude given the amount of discussion it has generated today.

[Leafsnail]

The second last person to claim, I believe.
But all the attention has gone to Deathsword.

I'm actually starting to see where you're coming from with this.  MOWE claimed after the point where it was obvious I wasn't the converter.  So she therefore knew that I almost certainly wasn't going to be lynched regardless, meaning that her lie would probably never be exposed (as long as the converter was alive I would be very much a second priority).

The only thing is that Toaster's current actions make more sense to me if Tiruin is the converter.  He's really pushing back against the Tiruin accusation hard, and I'm not sure if he'd need to do that if Tiruin were actually town or scum with an uninteresting role.

Eyeeeahhh, like that debate we had that I was adamant on the importance of the alignment cop role in which I was pro-cop, right?
Like how MOWE got you as scum. :v
And it's not wasted. It is invested.

Just that you have no argument for kills as scum.

You either misread or misremembered that discussion.  I repeatedly said that Ability Cop and Infallible Alignment Cop are excellent abilities, while Alignment Cop is useless.  The thing MOWE is claiming to have used in Infallible Alignment Cop, so that doesn't hurt this argument at all (indeed in that case Alignment Cop would have given her no useful information because I already claimed Miller).

The argument against scum ever using kill is massive.

Firstly, look at the raw numbers.  If you kill someone the town loses a vote.  If you convert someone the town loses a vote and you gain a vote.  For lylo purposes it is the same as making two kills.

But I think I would, as mafia, take a conversion over even a doublekill.  The reason for that is information.  Kills have a negative information effect - they explicitly tell the town that the person you killed was telling the truth throughout the game, as well as revealing what their role actually was.  But converts have a huge positive information effect on several levels:
1. Your team gains the knowledge of the person you converted
2. The town has no idea which townie was neutralized, or even if someone was neutralized
3. You can make them lie about your role to help the rest of your team fakeclaim
4. The fact that you have a conversion makes all of the town's attempts to create a "confirmed town" core team worthless

So with these major benefits it's really hard to imagine that a single point would ever swing the mafia from Convert to Kill, unless they were in really dire straits.  I can just about imagine mafia taking Day Kill under some (rare) circumstances, but your role is useless for protecting against those.

Nah, it does hold since they seem to be giving themselves up to support you and/or, DS/Persus. It's in the relations between players that show that.
Which means 1/3 because obvscum anyway.

Are you refuting your own point?

Err..ok?  They actually do give a...that. Because the powers are based around the player--they'd care if the player being lynched is a good one or has a good combination, as long as it isn't a direct detriment to their team.

Ok, sure.  Let's accept that.  A desirable lynch as scum would still be very much a static thing: just lynch a townie or a not very good member of your team.  Whereas as town you want to lynch scum, and your ideas of who scum are change as you get more information (and I think you'll agree that there has been a lot of new information revealed today).  Therefore I don't accept that me changing my mind is a scumtell, and in particular no-one has actually been able to point out any contradictions in my behaviour.

Goodie! That's ever since after you voted DS!
What about when you voted DS?

I have explained this multiple times.  4mask's reasoning was superficially appealing and I bought it.  But after sleeping on it I found it somewhat lacking, and your obvious bandwagon pushed me further into re-evaluating my ideas.

I did. You're using the logic of pre-game post-game and metaknowledge regarding the player as your case.

Yes, that is what I'm doing.  But I don't see why it's invalid as an argument.  Meta-tells are often a powerful tool (heck, you've been attempting to use them constantly in this game with your "Scum Leafsnail always does this", although you tend to ignore the fact that those things are just indicative of my play as either alignment).

Seriously? My opinion is that the scumteam is all piling up on me because my role-combo is a huge treat to build upon.

pfffhahaha

[Leafsnail]

3. You can make them lie about your role to help the rest of your team fakeclaim

EBWOP: This should say "You can make them lie about their role"

[Tiruin]

Eyeeeahhh, like that debate we had that I was adamant on the importance of the alignment cop role in which I was pro-cop, right?
Like how MOWE got you as scum. :v
And it's not wasted. It is invested.

Just that you have no argument for kills as scum.

You either misread or misremembered that discussion.  I repeatedly said that Ability Cop and Infallible Alignment Cop are excellent abilities, while Alignment Cop is useless.  The thing MOWE is claiming to have used in Infallible Alignment Cop, so that doesn't hurt this argument at all (indeed in that case Alignment Cop would have given her no useful information because I already claimed Miller).

The argument against scum ever using kill is massive.

Firstly, look at the raw numbers.  If you kill someone the town loses a vote.  If you convert someone the town loses a vote and you gain a vote.  For lylo purposes it is the same as making two kills.

But I think I would, as mafia, take a conversion over even a doublekill.  The reason for that is information.  Kills have a negative information effect - they explicitly tell the town that the person you killed was telling the truth throughout the game, as well as revealing what their role actually was.  But converts have a huge positive information effect on several levels:
1. Your team gains the knowledge of the person you converted
2. The town has no idea which townie was neutralized, or even if someone was neutralized
3. You can make them lie about your role to help the rest of your team fakeclaim
4. The fact that you have a conversion makes all of the town's attempts to create a "confirmed town" core team worthless

So with these major benefits it's really hard to imagine that a single point would ever swing the mafia from Convert to Kill, unless they were in really dire straits.  I can just about imagine mafia taking Day Kill under some (rare) circumstances, but your role is useless for protecting against those.

So explain to me why the alleged scumteam of yours has, oh, say 3 protects out of the unclaimed majority?

The list of suspects of yours-to be frank-misses out the only possible proof of logic which ties in with how you relate it here; and not to insult, you relate the case perfectly here.

Problem being: None of your other non-suspects have the acclaimed '2 protect' that is missing--you have claimed your Santa gift as a protect, yes? My argument on it is it is not proveable.

We have one more protect-claim than there ever is. You probably fail to see it here. You then question me seeing MOWE as town (possibly worded as a hypothetical to get info? I digress from the exactness of the claim and how you phrased your paragraphs.)

But let me put it in more detail: Why would the scumteam have TWO protects? YOUR alleged scumteam?
I think I had broken the code since then, yes? Have you mentioned it? I believe you have. You seemingly acknowledged my post--in the words of your suspect list 'Not Changing'.

However points go where points go: Jim makes a perfect argument. LS claims protect. Objective--the OBVSCUM--claims Protect. I claim Protect--you can argue that I could've easily moved my stuffs to a Free Inflate or whatever:
But you argue against empirical data by which you, yourself, follow. [Argument: See all those claims I put in the reference-links. See how none of them match your argument. See how the only other people who had claimed Protect is YOU and Objective. Why do you NOT suspect NATIVEFOREIGNER for that possibility? AYE! The argument of two protects per scum would make sense! Indelible sense! Yet for one as astoundingly wordy, cunning and intelligent as you-you poke on all other essentials that aren't taken and denounce my claim without looking at it in exacts.]

You fail to account the extras in lieu of disproving a claim for a nebulous reason of 'the scumteam would've switched their powers'. You remember my suspicions, yes? You, DS/Persus, Objective? You're getting serious cred from their lack of initiative, and probably planned it out in scumchat for a glorious push.
The rest just don't have to post as we all talk here.

As I said: One can lie so far--that their illusion of counterattack is veiled too thinly.
You forgot the pawn in this game, and that pawn has become a Queen.

But let's talk on that matter. Give me the hypothetical arrangement that consists of Two protects, from all unclaimed notes present.

My guess on your Santa gift which has been mentioned before: You have Hide.
Basically the one thing that isn't claimed in the list before--what I fail to see, is why the rest did not strikethrough the third Protect when it is apparent that ONE protect out of the three, is one hundred percent present by TDS/Objective's note. If the same argument on Free/Ability in the list would hold--I would point to mastahcheese who has F/D Sap/Scan, and there is only ONE scan in the list.

[Tiruin]

EBWOP

So explain to me why the alleged scumteam of yours has, oh, say 3 protects out of the unclaimed majority?

> Two.

You probably fail to see it here.

> Statement in question is

Why do you have such a sucky build again?  In any case I don't see what you're saying about Protect.  I got it last night and that claim doesn't clash with anyone else's.

While it could be agreed upon (it is inconclusive and unproveable)--if you had gotten Protect, you would be more reasonable in discussing and realizing the # of Protects versus your claim. [I mean that the note of having Protect would at least, make you psychologically more aware or more disposed towards its apparency in the role list--tie that in with what I said in the post above regarding NF]

[Tiruin]

EBWOP^{II
Wherein posting at 4 is a bad thing for specificity}

Addendum to the 'probably fail' link.

But anyway the exact distribution of powers isn't that important.  What's more important is that you can be scum even without a Native partner, and what's more your actions in the day and your claim strongly imply it.  That's enough for me to want you lynched.

Orange'd the discrepancy in regard to what has been said.

[Leafsnail]

So explain to me why the alleged scumteam of yours has, oh, say 3 2 protects out of the unclaimed majority?

Why would the scumteam take protect? The answer is simple: townies might buy kills because they don't have access to convert.  Therefore it would be sensible for the scumteam to get some protection from those kills.  In other words Protect is pretty much a scum ability, like Innocent.

We have one more protect-claim than there ever is. You probably fail to see it here. You then question me seeing MOWE as town (possibly worded as a hypothetical to get info? I digress from the exactness of the claim and how you phrased your paragraphs.)

What contradiction am I supposed to be seeing here?  There are 3 protects on Native's list.  There are 3 protects claimed (me, you, Objective/TDS).

I honestly do not understand where you're coming from with this argument at all.