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[Tack]

In that post I say YOU will cause us to lose if you are converted.

[Leafsnail]

Oh I guess that is a possible interpretation of that post if you just read the part I quoted.  I'll quote the whole thing instead to make it absolutely clear that's not what you're saying.

Santa comes before Fortune teller. It'll be in the list.


My ideas, on the edge of this:
Leafsnail isn't the recycler.
Leafsnail is the converter.

Claimed recycler, so that we wouldn't lynch, thinking 'shit, but I guess they're on our side'
Is planning to win the game tomorrow night anyway.
So is just trying to muddy the waters from here on out.

I say Leafsnail either needs to die today, or will be responsible for us losing tomorrow- because of a convert which we can't protect against anyway.

[Leafsnail]

You trying to interpret your own post out of context is pretty hilarious, though.

[Tack]

That's called 'covering bases'. I said what happens if I'm right, I said what happens if I'm wrong.

You see, what truly baffles me when I think about it is- cops are the biggest threat to a scum. So making a cop claim is the easiest way to get yourself killed.
But the only action which happened to me last night was your supposed recycle.
Yet you claimed it, and claimed town. Which baffles me.

Because there was only two things I can pull from this:
1. The mafia had a definite lock on someone who was a much bigger problem than I, and had to convert them and leave me be.
2. The mafia knew I was going to be taken care of.

Seeing as nobody else made day 1 claims and the scan and count are in the (supposed) hands of townies, I can think of no reason for the first to be true.
Therefore, going off whatever logic I can scrape together, it must be number 2. And as you yourself have stated:

"I want to draw kills to myself" makes no sense as a reason, giving the mafia the information just lets them make a more informed decision.

But in my post I had said:

As I'm obviously terrible at this game, I guess I'll just throw down my cards early. Easier than wasting a lynch.
I took Infallable alignment cop and Blatant. Which means I'll most likely now waste a kill.

Sounds like the mating cry of the pressure-voted noob. Which you'd know.
So, just adding up variables again- stands to reason that the mafia made an informed decision, decided I would be protected (us not knowing it was kill-only at that point), and therefore sent you to recycle me. At which point there would be no reason for me to be converted because, as you said, 'I'm pretty neutralized right now'

But then I threw a wrench in those plans by forcing you to claim. If you are the Recycler and you're scum, then claiming Townie Recycler is the most logical thing to do. Having a dispute on your claim would lead to much more suspicion coming down on you, but claiming townie recycler fits. It's a nice story, so everyone goes along with it, albeit slightly irritated.

The logic further fits together with the idea of a scumteam which we put together:
1. Convert
2. Recycle/Sap
3. Changeling/Cleanse

So, Leafsnail, those are my arguments as to why I believe you are scum. This time with at least 80% less OMGUS.
But don't cry, because if you get lynched and in the crazily unlikely event, show up Townie;
1. Your spare points won't have gone to waste.
2. This post:

Tack: Why do you think the recycler is scum?

I'd think a recycler is scum, since he targeted the guy who claimed a very town role.

Seems like a push from The Dark Star, another one of my 'big three', and a very cleverly made call by someone who would know we were both legit.
3. One less recycler to go to the enemy converter.

Oh, and there's still an infallible alignment cop running around on our side, so I'd really rather just lynch you now so that they don't need to waste their check on your scummy ass.

Spoiler: Miller claims (click to show/hide)

MILLER CLAIMS
4 false millers
Tiruin - Miller
mastahcheese - Miller
4maskwolf - Miller
Jim Groovester - Miller
Deathsword - Miller
Tawarochir - Miller
Jack A T - Miller
Leafsnail - Miller
TheDarkStar - Miller

2 Innocent
NativeForeigner - Not Miller
Objective - Not Miller
P-Luke - Not Miller - truth
MyOwnWorstEnemy - Not Miller
Tack - Not Miller

Spoiler: N1 Fortune telling (click to show/hide)

POWERS
Changeling
Convert
Count
Flavour Inspect
Fortune Teller
Hide
Inflate
Infallible Alignment Cop
Infallible Alignment Cop
Kill
Protect
Protect
Protect
Recycle
Santa
Santa
Sap
Sap
Sap
Scan

AUTOS
Bloodthirsty
Bloodthirsty
Bloodthirsty
Clear Minded
Clear Minded
Day
Day
Day
Day
Free
Free
Free
Immune to Night Kills
Innocent
Innocent
Prolific
Unstoppable

FLAWS
Blatant
Blatant
Blatant
Blatant
Dense
Dense
Dense
Hardcore
Hardcore
Hardcore
Hardcore
Magnetic
Magnetic
Magnetic
Mercenary
Miller
Miller
Miller
Miller
Miller
Unable to vote
Unable to vote

[4maskwolf]

NQT, does Fortune Teller report results from the start of the phase or the end of the phase?

Also, thanks all you chatty people for making this thread so difficult to stay on top of.

Dear 4maskwolf and Tack:

Firstly, answer my questions:

I still don't see an explanation for why you decided to channel your inner Marty McFly about topical Day 1 discussion.

And there's a reason for that.
If you were smart, and thinking like a townie, you'd see it.

How about you answer my fucking question instead of dodge it in the tooliest fashion possible.

I find it pretty likely for Tiruin to be scum.

Then why not vote her?

Alright, time for me to go through the list of things that Jack could have done to me and their results:

Why are you trying to figure this out instead of find scum?

In any case, why didn't you try to kill anybody last night?

Secondly, go fuck yourselves for ignoring me.

While I would normally take offense, the sane 4maskwolf is off duty right now.  I didn't try to kill anyone because I would likely have only been given one shot at that kill, whether by the scum or by the town, so I had to ensure that there was no way it could fail, which meant getting immovable.  I also needed to pinpoint a scum player to use it on.

[Leafsnail]

You see, what truly baffles me when I think about it is- cops are the biggest threat to a scum.

In this game?  Not really.  The results of a previously claimed cop are borderline useless because the mafia could have just converted them and got them to lie.  A vig or a blocker are probably more dangerous because they can actually slow the mafia's expansion.

So making a cop claim is the easiest way to get yourself killed.

"Cops are a powerful weapon.  That's why I wanted to claim and make sure that powerful weapon was neutralized as soon as possible".

But the only action which happened to me last night was your supposed recycle.

How do you know this?  And why are you saying "supposed" considering you know it happened?

1. The mafia had a definite lock on someone who was a much bigger problem than I, and had to convert them and leave me be.
2. The mafia knew I was going to be taken care of.

3. You are scum.

Also you neglected the possibility that the mafia realized that a claimed cop doesn't have much credibility on subsequent days anyway.  And that inspections are a lot less valuable when people can be converted afterwards.

Seeing as nobody else made day 1 claims and the scan and count are in the (supposed) hands of townies, I can think of no reason for the first to be true.

How do you know?

Therefore, going off whatever logic I can scrape together, it must be number 2. And as you yourself have stated:

"I want to draw kills to myself" makes no sense as a reason, giving the mafia the information just lets them make a more informed decision.

But in my post I had said:

As I'm obviously terrible at this game, I guess I'll just throw down my cards early. Easier than wasting a lynch.
I took Infallable alignment cop and Blatant. Which means I'll most likely now waste a kill.

Sounds like the mating cry of the pressure-voted noob. Which you'd know.

I guess you're claiming ignorance here, then?  Bullshit.  You've demonstrated a fair amount of knowledge of how roles work, I seriously doubt you don't know why a cop shouldn't claim day one.

To be clear I am asking you why, if you think cop is such an important role, you decided to basically throw it away by claiming.

So, just adding up variables again- stands to reason that the mafia made an informed decision, decided I would be protected (us not knowing it w
as kill-only at that point), and therefore sent you to recycle me. At which point there would be no reason for me to be converted because, as you said, 'I'm pretty neutralized right now'

Or the mafia made an informed decision that you weren't really that threatening compared to every other player in the game.  Or you're scum.

But then I threw a wrench in those plans by forcing you to claim. If you are the Recycler and you're scum, then claiming Townie Recycler is the most logical thing to do. Having a dispute on your claim would lead to much more suspicion coming down on you, but claiming townie recycler fits. It's a nice story, so everyone goes along with it, albeit slightly irritated.

"If you assume Leafsnail is scum, it naturally follows that Leafsnail is scum"

The logic further fits together with the idea of a scumteam which we put together:
1. Convert
2. Recycle/Sap
3. Changeling/Cleanse

"Of course I'm not going to explain why this scumteam in particular makes sense, or how they have cleanse in spite of it not appearing on the list"

So, Leafsnail, those are my arguments as to why I believe you are scum. This time with at least 80% less OMGUS.
But don't cry, because if you get lynched and in the crazily unlikely event, show up Townie;

None of these things are consolation at all.  If the converter isn't lynched today or blocked tonight the game is almost certainly beyond reach for the town.  Hmm, who is the only player who could block the converter again?

Also

Seems like a push from The Dark Star, another one of my 'big three', and a very cleverly made call by someone who would know we were both legit.

What?

Oh, and there's still an infallible alignment cop running around on our side, so I'd really rather just lynch you now so that they don't need to waste their check on your scummy ass.

What?

There isn't a single good reason in this post.  It is pretty much entirely circular logic (and not even consistent circular logic at all).

[Tawa]

-snip-
Tawarochir - Miller
-snip-

You liar. I went off on a TANGENT on how I thought Miller would be a dumb idea.

I will be surprised if you flip town, Tack.

[Jim Groovester]

You see, what truly baffles me when I think about it is- cops are the biggest threat to a scum. So making a cop claim is the easiest way to get yourself killed.
But the only action which happened to me last night was your supposed recycle.
Yet you claimed it, and claimed town. Which baffles me.

Ahem.

You don't get a free town card just because you claimed cop.

Apparently you seem resolved to ignore anything anybody has to say that contradicts your arguments.

Because there was only two things I can pull from this:
1. The mafia had a definite lock on someone who was a much bigger problem than I, and had to convert them and leave me be.
2. The mafia knew I was going to be taken care of.

Holy shit, you're actually an egomaniac. You really do think you're the most important player in the game, don't you?

While I would normally take offense, the sane 4maskwolf is off duty right now.  I didn't try to kill anyone because I would likely have only been given one shot at that kill, whether by the scum or by the town, so I had to ensure that there was no way it could fail, which meant getting immovable.  I also needed to pinpoint a scum player to use it on.

Right. And claiming fits into this plan how?

You liar. I went off on a TANGENT on how I thought Miller would be a dumb idea.

I will be surprised if you flip town, Tack.

Could you elaborate?

[Tawa]

-snip-

You liar. I went off on a TANGENT on how I thought Miller would be a dumb idea.

I will be surprised if you flip town, Tack.

Could you elaborate?

Ehm, yes.

Well, first off, Leafsnail makes a series of huge points I really agree with (and am too lazy to type on my own).

But this? Outright stating I claimed Miller when I went into a moderately long discussion about how Miller was a "bad idea"? Ignoring one post can just be a mistake, but a SERIES of posts like that is just outright scummy. Hence my vote.

[Jack A T]

Argh.

This is like the 7th time I've sent a PM to NQT about scanning people so far, today.
I'm not even kidding.
He's going to be so mad at me.

mastahcheese: If you are willing to do so, would you mind telling us who your assorted target ideas were and why you planned to target them?

Tack: Why Native?  Why no vote?

Tack: I am aware the game has changed since I asked you these.  However, you never answered them.  Would you be so kind as to do so?
Also, you're being a twit.  Stop it.

Objective: You've contributed nothing to the game so far.  Would you be so kind as to tell us your scumpicks and why?  Also, why are you posting so little every time you come in?

Deathsword: The entirety of your content yesterday was one post voting P-Luke for his poor assumptions about millers.  The entirety of your content today has been a FoS against Tiruin for...whatever the fuck it was that she was trying to do.  Why only a FoS, if she was the only person you considered scummy enough to note in the thread?  Scumpicks and why?

MyOwnWorstEnemy: How strongly do you feel about that the statement of Leafsnail's that you found suspicious in your post today?  Why no vote?  Scumpicks and why?

TheDarkStar: While you contributed a bit day 1, your speech day 2 has consisted of only two posts, in which you... answered a question for Tack with one sentence, and then corrected your formatting.  Why jump in to answer a question directed at Tack?  Why contribute nothing else?  Any thoughts on the state of the game?  Scumpicks and why?

Tiruin: I still have trouble seeing much reason for your "I inflated Kill.  Actually, I inflated Resurrect." thing.  Why did you do it?

[TheDarkStar]

Currently, I suspect Tawa, Leafsnail, and Objective. Why? Well, in Tawa and Leafsnail's case, Leafsnail is trying to get a guy lynched who has been both confirmed by multiple other people, claimed a detective role, and got his role already cleared. Tawa is not even bothering to get real evidence; he's simply echoing LS's actions.

Objective's problem is related to my role claim. I am the changeling; I chose it so that I could confirm scum while making them useless at the same time. I also had Mercenary, Miller, Dense, and Hardcore. I switched roles with Objective last night since his actions seemed odd to me, especially his vote. Here's his role:
Protect: Not too bad; probably intended to protect his team.
Sap: Probably to get more points.
Innocent: This is the one that basically confirms it. Note that town can have innocent (not that it does anything), so that's why I can see it.
No autos or flaws.

However, my vote is not on Objective, since we need to get rid of either the converter or the sapper/recycler first. Lynching Objective is good, but we'll still lose unless we can stop the converter.

PPE: I've had RL going on yesterday and today that takes almost all of my free time. As for Tack, I was going to say more, but I ran out of time. However, I don't think he is scum; he's been checked (and he's been recycled anyway, AFAIK, so he's a much less important person to get rid of than the converter, even if he is scum).

[Jack A T]

Now this is interesting.

TheDarkStar: So, are you saying you have Innocent right now, due to your changeling use?  That it is part of your role?

[TheDarkStar]

Now this is interesting.

TheDarkStar: So, are you saying you have Innocent right now, due to your changeling use?  That it is part of your role?

Yes; now it is. Also, check the new role list to see if a Miller is gone.

[Tawa]

So, you know, DarkStar, it's really odd you basically CONFIRMED a mafioso and did NOTHING.

"Oh, yeah, Objective had Innocent. I'm still going to vote Leafsnail."

I WOULD OMGUS you, but Tack is already too suspicious.

Currently, I suspect Tawa, Leafsnail, and Objective. Why? Well, in Tawa and Leafsnail's case, Leafsnail is trying to get a guy lynched who has been both confirmed by multiple other people, claimed a detective role, and got his role already cleared. Tawa is not even bothering to get real evidence; he's simply echoing LS's actions.

Objective's problem is related to my role claim. I am the changeling; I chose it so that I could confirm scum while making them useless at the same time. I also had Mercenary, Miller, Dense, and Hardcore. I switched roles with Objective last night since his actions seemed odd to me, especially his vote. Here's his role:
Protect: Not too bad; probably intended to protect his team.
Sap: Probably to get more points.
Innocent: This is the one that basically confirms it. Note that town can have innocent (not that it does anything), so that's why I can see it.
No autos or flaws.

However, my vote is not on Objective, since we need to get rid of either the converter or the sapper/recycler first. Lynching Objective is good, but we'll still lose unless we can stop the converter.

PPE: I've had RL going on yesterday and today that takes almost all of my free time. As for Tack, I was going to say more, but I ran out of time. However, I don't think he is scum; he's been checked (and he's been recycled anyway, AFAIK, so he's a much less important person to get rid of than the converter, even if he is scum).

Also, where was Tack confirmed? I don't see it anywhere.

[Jack A T]

In Power Swap and Gift, the random list of powers to swap or give only includes powers that the recipient could actually use. And with Changeling, Miller and Convert would be lost if given to a player of the wrong alignment. So imagine a town Changeling Miller casting Changeling on scum, who the next night casts Changeling on a town player: neither the scum player nor the final town player would have the Miller flaw. (I doubt this situation will come up.)

NQT: I am aware that you have stated that town cannot get convert and scum cannot get miller, even through changeling, and that said abilities disappear if a changeling of the opposite alignment targets the owner.  Does this apply to Innocent?  Have you theoretically been remembering this rule as you stated you intended here?