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[DJ]

Dunno about murder, but I think virtually everyone would be a thief if there were no consequences at all.

[Frumple]

A great many acts of thievery have no (personal) consequences, though, especially petty stuff. And yet many -- I'd wager most -- folks don't indulge, despite the opportunity. Because, y'know, there's non-personal consequences to thievery and if you get people to care about those, they're not particularly likely to steal. Considerably less likely than if they're aware of some punishment they'll probably avoid anyway. You socialize a person correctly, and they won't want to hurt other people in the majority of situations. They'll also probably want to show appreciation for the work of others, and so have a strong incentive to pay (or trade, I guess) for something than steal it. That doesn't take punishment to enforce. It just takes people giving a damn about it, and most people are inclined to.

Now, if you mean no consequences at all -- no social approbation, no loss on the part of the one being "stolen" from, etc. -- then... well, there'd actually be no thieves, because thievery wouldn't be something that could happen. No loss on the part of the one being stolen from means no thievery is occurring. No harm, no foul, as it's said.

[kaijyuu]

Perhaps of note, most people aren't deterred by laws if they feel they can get away with it. A really easy example is the speed limit on roads; only a few people like me actually follow it because no one gets ticketed for going 5-10 mph/kph over. Those that do follow it probably do so for safety reasons rather than submission to authority.

Petty theft, like stealing a candy bar, is about as easy. Most people don't do that though, and it's most likely because someone is knowingly harmed (the store owners).


Humans is sometimes kind.

[Zangi]

Safety reasons?  I call em people who ain't cut out to drive.  >.>    Or... busy doing other stuff.  (Though, often times, I have seen people shoot past me while on the cell phone.)

[Sergarr]

Humans is

ARE, god dammit, ARE!

[Frumple]

Perhaps of note, most people aren't deterred by laws if they feel they can get away with it. A really easy example is the speed limit on roads; only a few people like me actually follow it because no one gets ticketed for going 5-10 mph/kph over. Those that do follow it probably do so for safety reasons rather than submission to authority.

Respect for more than submission to, in my case -- t'me, submission implies there's no reason to abide besides it being authority. Way I figure it, people who built and maintain the road have a better idea how fast you're supposed to be going on it than I do. When dealing with cases outside my expertise, I defer to the experts. And close family actually did have a hand in building a great many roads in this area, so... yeah. Not like speeding saves much time anyway, when it saves any at all.

But aye, it's not really threat of punishment that causes compliance with speeding laws, at least for those that actually do. It's other concerns. Hell, actual punishment often doesn't deter or reduce speeding infractions, unless it's so far as to strip the driver's license from the infringer. Boggles my bloody mind you have people that'll soak up several hundred dollars worth of fines a year, just because they're apparently pathologically incapable of just following the ruddy road laws.

[Pnx]

I think how willing people are to commit crimes is tied more to things like desperation than how easily they think they can get away with it. I think if someone is desperate enough they will do basically anything, and while there's definitely people out there that are just plain amoral, I think most people only do bad things because they don't feel they have a choice (people don't always see the other choices they have when in a stressful situation, or they refuse to consider the other choices for reasons of pride or such).

[kaijyuu]

Humans is

ARE, god dammit, ARE!

http://www.qwantz.com/fanart/japan/8.jpg

Sorry for misquoting it.

[Stuebi]

My stance on this might come over as weird, and im not sure if I can convey it correctly on english, so bear with me here.

On one hand, I feel pretty strongly about certain crimes, Rape/Murder/Violence in general, and I tend to react rather harshly on those. I also cant deny that somewhere deep down sometimes, I wish misfortune on people doing these things, even if its death. Nothing of value would be lost, if a murderer dies, thats the feeling that I get.

On the other hand, I strongly believe that noone should ever have the power to decide someones death, or decide that someone should experience violence. Punishment is important, but death and pain are things humans shouldnt have power over. I dont think these things could be handled adequatly by anyone. I think its inherently wrong to wish death and suffering unto someone, no matter the reason. Thus "An eye for an eye" is something I would not support.

TL/DR: I do feel that some people deserve a lot of horrible things, and sometimes part of me wishes them to become true. But I would deny myself and others the power to every make it reality, because I think its wrong.

Man, that sounds really stupid.

[kaijyuu]

How so? A big part of maturity is denying urges in favor of what you consciously decide to be the correct course of action.

[Stuebi]

How so? A big part of maturity is denying urges in favor of what you consciously decide to be the correct course of action.

But isnt the mere thought itself a sign of being a bad person? I mean sure, im pretty positive that noone looks at a mass murderer in a "good way". But I allways felt my usual attitude of "I'd probably pull the Trigger on the Dude from a purely personal stance, but you know, dont do it please." is kind of a double-standard. Sure, its the right thing to do, but it still feels like im being a hypocrite.

[alexandertnt]

@Stuebi: that doesn't sound stupid or weird at all, and I experience something pretty simiar.

[Knick]

How so? A big part of maturity is denying urges in favor of what you consciously decide to be the correct course of action.

But isnt the mere thought itself a sign of being a bad person? I mean sure, im pretty positive that noone looks at a mass murderer in a "good way". But I allways felt my usual attitude of "I'd probably pull the Trigger on the Dude from a purely personal stance, but you know, dont do it please." is kind of a double-standard. Sure, its the right thing to do, but it still feels like im being a hypocrite.

Steubi, I think it comes down to wanting to do something versus actually doing it.  You feel what you feel.  You can't really control your emotions--that is, what you feel on the inside.  You can control who you express them.

Taking a personal example, it is the difference between wanting to whip a bottle of urine at a drive who honks at me, or cuts me off while I am on my bike, vs. actually carrying a bottle of urine with my to do so.  And maybe yelling "Jarate!" as I do so. 

That said, I sometimes give in a yell at people when on my bike--a time when my emotions and adrenaline are particularly high.  I am expressing emotions.  For every time I actually do that, there are maybe twenty times I WANT to do that but don't.

Umm.  I guess this is kind of getting into "sins in thought" vs. "sins in deed".

May I also compliment everyone on the civility of this discussion?

[kaijyuu]

Realizing what the correct, moral course of action is is commendable.

The only case where I'd say someone is horrible from their thoughts and not just their actions is if they avoid doing bad things solely to avoid punishment. If deterrent is the only reason they're not committing atrocities, they're no better than someone who is, and are just in different circumstances.


EDIT: There is some sense in judging people by their desires and not their actions, but understand everyone is a bundle of desires, often conflicting. They may want to hurt someone and not hurt someone at the same time; if the latter wins out, then they're not a bad person.