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Author Topic: Seeking help from Experienced players.  (Read 3235 times)

Popokolara

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Seeking help from Experienced players.
« on: March 19, 2014, 03:29:22 pm »

Hello

The last few months i have been trying to create a prosperous and efficient subterranean fortress.I have come to understand the more simple mechanics and now want to ask quite a few questions on how to improve my game.I m currently enjoying the DF masterwork mod and most of my issues come with the new reactions.


First off general queries:


At the start of my games i usually have my farmers sitting around with little job.Then after a few seasons and especially if i buy seeds from caravans they just cant keep up with the need to plant seeds.Do you know what is the priority of planting seeds vs other tasks.How do you deal with this issue-am i doing something terribly wrong?

Whats the actual value of iron bark and steel oak i read something about transmutation but didn't find specific info.Do they have siperior values than normal wood in regards to dwarf bucks value and combat statistics?

I tried to implement a mist generator by digging a deep channel in my meeting hall and have water fall from above.the mist did not seem to travel away from the actual channel and my dwarves eating just 2 block away did not get happy thought. ???how to tinker with this?

I dug a canal to the edge of the map to make the water safely flow off the boundaries and not flood my fortres but fun ensued.Is it impossible to create an artifical branch of the river flowing off the map?

Is there a way to make sure my trade depot stockpile uses only non wooden bins?so i don't have to micro manage trading with the elves

I read mine carts can safely transfer magma and then dump it by a constructed track stop.So then the magma will simple fall right in front of the track stop?Any knowledge of specific schematics or tutorials to this?


Are kilns, and clay ovens anything more than alternate ways to create furniture and simple trade goods  in case you are short in wood or stone?I don't bother with pottery and clay goods, am i missing out on something?

I trained a few cragtooth boars and shaggy badger-dogs.Was over quite fast.Now they are ready to be assigned to my militia?No time consuming training to make them legendary beasts of war?that was all?And bout grazing and food-do they stop needing it while they escort a dwarf?

How to take a creature out of a cage-apart from stockpilling the cage somewhere or pasturing the creature.an actual way to click and *unlock*?

What is mass dumping for?Reading about people being happy the feature for mass designation was added.

sometimes i see items appearing in my stockpile reckords but at the same time they just wont appear on the military menu to equip or are inaccessible.Could it be a bug?


My current fortress design:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Red and above is the workshops area, Green is the level meeting hall and yellow the bedrooms.I am using a burrow per level for workshop crafters strategy covering my stone, wood, glass, gem, siege, military and metal workshops.

Current layout is:
Level 1:Hospital - Barracks - Trade depot
Level 2:Tree farm and pasture for egg laying animals and delicious plump helmet men
Level 3:Tailoring and leather working, Research, archaeology and other labs.
Level 4:Farming and food related workshops
Level 5:Stone, wood, gem and glass workshops, mechanics
Level 6:Metal processor, smelter and metal smith forge.Siege workshop, Fletcher, bowyer
Level 7:Catacombs
Level 8:Possible extensions for the advanced masterwork workshops and additional bedrooms.

Thats a total of about 26 dwarves for levels 1-6.Was thinking of assigning about 20 with no labor only hauling, when needed assign extra to the masterwork more complicated workshops and buildings like the monastery and toolmaker and all the rest go into my military forces.Said haulers could work with farming enabled too?to help out during plant heavy seasons.

In general does this population plan look if im aiming to play at lets say a pop cap of 100?Could people show me a rough image of their population management?im very curious to see how people handle this issue which for me is the main reason i abandon settlements-when i feel i messed up and cant make head or tails of what is happening.

Being the haulers job to move around constantly i imagined it wouldn't matter if their bedrooms are in all bunched up in some deep level,while my crafters enjoy practical close by burrows for minimum downtime.Problem atm is sometimes i end up with the same type of drink on 1 level and burrow inhabitants are annoyed by "the same old booze lately".Any way to counter this apart from creating 1x1 tile stockpile accepting specific only boozes?

If the big stockpile runs out giving all food to a smaller one, then that smaller one would not share with the others-soo my best bet is to have a giant main stockpile and much smaller burrow ones?

How exactly do i use armoks blood?i filled a magma flask at the alchemist and then couldn't understand what to do.

And lastly looking for tips and veteran advice towards my fort design.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 03:36:49 pm by Popokolara »
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FallenAngel

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Re: Seeking help from Experienced players.
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2014, 03:36:38 pm »

I don't know what these iron and steel trees are, but with the farm concern, did you remember to set them to work year-round?
Otherwise your farms will be idle 3/4 of the year.
You might also need a decent variety in plants; I'm not 100% sure that Plump Helmets grow year-round.

Popokolara

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Re: Seeking help from Experienced players.
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2014, 03:38:59 pm »


Yes.In the masterwork mod surface plants are only planted spring and summer and take 1 season to grow and underground crops take a full year to grow.I was hoping for some kind of forumula x seeds mean Y farmers to efficiently plant the seeds based on planting tick time.Also i have 5 types of surface crops and 4 types of underground.
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Remuthra

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Re: Seeking help from Experienced players.
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2014, 03:39:42 pm »

I don't know what these iron and steel trees are, but with the farm concern, did you remember to set them to work year-round?
Otherwise your farms will be idle 3/4 of the year.
You might also need a decent variety in plants; I'm not 100% sure that Plump Helmets grow year-round.
They do.

FallenAngel

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Re: Seeking help from Experienced players.
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2014, 03:43:31 pm »

I only have experience in default DF (with one race I modded in, but that's it), not Masterwork.
I also haven't been playing long but I learned fast.

Popokolara

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Re: Seeking help from Experienced players.
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2014, 04:50:17 pm »

Should this be posted in the mods section instead?That forum was mostly filled with modding related questions so i was not sure.
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EvilBob22

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Re: Seeking help from Experienced players.
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2014, 05:09:34 pm »

I'm not a Masterwork player, but I'll give my 2 cents on the non-Masterwork stuff.

Farmers will often be idle for a while in my forts too.  I usually make one of my starting seven do pretty much anything remotely farming related, and then let migrants be more specialized.  I find planting a relatively high priority task.  If your farmers can't keep up, then maybe the farmers need to have less other jobs.  Or maybe your farms are too big, or you may simply need more farmers.  It doesn't sound like you are "terribly wrong", it just may need some tweaking.

Water falling doesn't generate much mist until it hits bottom.  Probably the best mist generator is to have a circle of pumps above where you want the mist to be.  See the wiki mist page for a description.

Unfortunately, you can't specify the material of the bins in a stockpile.  You'll have to either be careful when trading with Elves, or not trade the bins away.

Kilns can also create bricks (in addition to trade goods and furniture), but really are optional.  Pots made from fire clay (or other types of clay once they have been glazed) can be used as alternatives to barrels too.  The only thing that absolutely needs a kiln is baking potash into pearlash - which is used in making clear glass or crystal glass (green glass doesn't need it).  I assume clay ovens are Masterwork specific.

The initial training of a wild animal changes them to "trained" (or "-trained-" or "*trained*" etc), but that will slowly wear off, going to "semi-wild", and eventually completely wild.  Unless the animal is still in a cage, animal trainers will keep re-training them so that they stay "trained".  But, if your fort is not good at training that type of animal, they may not get trained fast enough, and the animal may go wild on you.  Caged animals are slightly different: they get "trained" like uncaged animals, but are never re-trained until they have gone completely wild.  They are safer that way though, so some people like to keep animals in cages until the experience for that type has gone up.  Babies of trained animals get the same training level as their mother.  But, if you train them once, they will go all the way to "tame", and "tame" animals never lose their training.

In addition, some animals can be trained for war and/or hunting.  That is a permanent (and quick) change.

So, all of that affects whether you want to assign a trained animal to the military or not.  The other consideration is that assigning an animal to a soldier makes it that soldier's pet, giving good thoughts, unless it dies (giving very bad thoughts).

The easiest way to get an animal (or anything else non-Dwarf) out of a cage is to assign them to a pit zone.  Dig a 1 z-level channel somewhere, and create a pit zone next to the hole.  "P" to assign creatures to the pit; they will be taken out of the cage and put in the pit, and then they will wander off by themselves.  (Dwarves in a cage -- like captured Dwarf Zombies, or caravan guards, or your own that fall asleep on a cage trap -- have to be released the "hard way".)

Mass dumping has been around for a while now (4 years? maybe more).  In the old days, after a goblin siege, you would have to "k" over to a dead goblin, "d" to mark his iron helm for dumping, "+" to move down to his iron breastplate, "d" to mark that, "+" again, "d" again, "+", "d", etc, for every goblin. With mass dumping, you can now "d" - "b" - "d" and mark a whole area -- everything in the area gets marked for dumping.  (The same thing goes with un-forbidding and mass un-forbidding.)

What kind of items are showing up in the stockpile menu, but not in the military menu?  One possibility could be that they are foreign items (items your civilization can't make), those all show up at the bottom of the list.  Everything else *should* be there to select as part of the uniform, even if you don't have any of the particular item at the time.

As far as the fort goes, I think that is a pretty interesting design.  It should be pretty efficient, and would probably work very well.  That being said, I personally wouldn't do it because it would feel like too much micro-management for me.  My own population management is usually very loose: I let Dwarves wander wherever they need to, and use Dwarf Therapist to manage the jobs when needed.

But, don't let that stop your plan, go for it!  I'm interested to see how well it works out for you.

"Same old booze" can be countered with even just two types of booze. So if you have tons of Dwarven Wine, you could do one stockpile that takes any booze except Dwarven Wine, and another (probably smaller) one that takes only Dwarven Wine.  Then you would be pretty much guaranteed to have multiple types of booze on that level without needing lots of small stockpiles.  (If you don't have excess of one type of booze, it should work well with other splits too, like one pile with Dwarven Wine, Dwarven Beer, and Strawberry wine, and the other pile with Dwarven Rum, Dwarven Ale, and Prickleberry wine.)

You are right about the small stockpiles not sharing with each other, so smaller ones are probably better in your kind of setup.  Just be aware that it will create a lot of hauling jobs to refill the multiple stockpiles.
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I will run the experiment to completion anyway, however. Even if the only reason why there is a punctured equilibrium in the fortress is because I have been brutally butchering babies
EDIT: I just remembered that dwarves can't equip halberds. That might explain why the squads that use them always die.

Popokolara

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Re: Seeking help from Experienced players.
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2014, 05:20:35 pm »

Tnz for taking the time to adress all these questions.

Why would you dump instead of collect all the goblin items?isnt it better to use them even for trading?

regarding food strockpiles i have to choose between crafter efficiency and down time and amount of needed hauling.being that i cant stand the idea of losing efficiency for workshops il go the multiple stock piles.
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Magistrum

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Re: Seeking help from Experienced players.
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2014, 05:24:23 pm »

Tnz for taking the time to adress all these questions.

Why would you dump instead of collect all the goblin items?isnt it better to use them even for trading?

regarding food strockpiles i have to choose between crafter efficiency and down time and amount of needed hauling.being that i cant stand the idea of losing efficiency for workshops il go the multiple stock piles.
You should melt the goblinite for cheap metals and use them to train the furnace operators and armorsmiths(They can take some time to get legendary...)
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EvilBob22

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Re: Seeking help from Experienced players.
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2014, 05:39:47 pm »

You are welcome!

Dumping is a very high priority task, so it gets done faster than letting them gather items when they get to it.  I use it myself, primarily to get the stuff out of the dangerous area first, and then sort it out later.  You do have to un-forbid stuff after it is dumped though.
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I will run the experiment to completion anyway, however. Even if the only reason why there is a punctured equilibrium in the fortress is because I have been brutally butchering babies
EDIT: I just remembered that dwarves can't equip halberds. That might explain why the squads that use them always die.

Magistrum

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Re: Seeking help from Experienced players.
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2014, 05:45:08 pm »

You are welcome!

Dumping is a very high priority task, so it gets done faster than letting them gather items when they get to it.  I use it myself, primarily to get the stuff out of the dangerous area first, and then sort it out later.  You do have to un-forbid stuff after it is dumped though.
I also do this when necromancers start sneaking around before I get all the goblinite from the last siege out of the surface.
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palu

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Re: Seeking help from Experienced players.
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2014, 08:02:43 pm »

You Might want to try the masterwork subforum:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=24.0

The questions thread is here: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=24.0
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SixOfSpades

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Re: Seeking help from Experienced players.
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2014, 02:45:09 am »

Note that my answers reflect the unmodded game, & therefore might not pertain to Masterwork.

Do you know what is the priority of planting seeds vs other tasks.How do you deal with this issue-am i doing something terribly wrong?
If any task has the wrong priority, it's Hauling. In my fort at least, it seems that my dwarves would rather drag rocks around than do just about anything else. So one thing you might try is take your Planters and turn off their "Stone Hauling" (or whatever type of material is most commonly moved around in your fort), and also enable their Woodcutting. So now, your planters can do most of the regular Hauling jobs, but will no longer be distracted from their Planting duties by big mining projects, and they have something useful to do during times when they're not planting.

Quote
I tried to implement a mist generator . . . my dwarves eating just 2 block away did not get happy thought.
IIRC, falling water will only generate mist 1 tile away from where the water actually lands.

Quote
I dug a canal to the edge of the map to make the water safely flow off the boundaries and not flood my fortres but fun ensued.Is it impossible to create an artifical branch of the river flowing off the map?
You cannot dig (or build walls) on the very edge of the map. But you CAN still drain fluids, by digging a tunnel as close to the edge as you can, and then on the very last tile, Smooth it, and then Carve Fortifications. Fluids such as water can flow through fortifications, even off the map.

Quote
Is there a way to make sure my trade depot stockpile uses only non wooden bins?so i don't have to micro manage trading with the elves
As previously answered, you can't. Just sell the elves the items in the bins, not the bind themselves.
You can sort-of keep wooden bins away from the elves, if you have one area of your fort that houses all the industries & stockpiles that elves don't like (such as Woodcrafting and Soap), and a separate area for everything else. Make a big temporary Dump zone in the wood-industries area, Dump all your wooden bins (but not their contents), and let them get carried to the wood-industry side of your fort. Then, un-forbid them, and turn off the dump zone. This will encourage the dwarves to put wooden things in wooden bins, but it's not guaranteed.

Quote
I read mine carts can safely transfer magma and then dump it by a constructed track stop.
Don't worry about minecarts yet. Besides, if you have only 26 dwarves and have already found magma, why would you need to move it?

Quote
I don't bother with pottery and clay goods, am i missing out on something?
It is so easy to generate wealth in this game that many industries are almost never used. Pottery, glass, wax, dyed cloth, milling, pressing, leatherworking, and even metalcrafting seem to be almost completely ignored in quite a lot of forts. Go ahead & build at least 1 of every type of workshop, sure, but that's really only to be ready in case of a Strange Mood. As far as actually developing an industry, however, only do it if you want to--it's quite easy to run a highly successful & profitable fort with just Planting, Brewing & Cooking.

Quote
Being the haulers job to move around constantly i imagined it wouldn't matter if their bedrooms are in all bunched up in some deep level,while my crafters enjoy practical close by burrows for minimum downtime.
I find that downtime isn't really a consideration: Crafts are so insanely profitable that I don't bother with optimizing a process that only takes roughly a total of 1 week over an entire year. Personal workshops are still good, though: Bring up the Manager profile of your Legendary Bone Carver's workshop to make sure that she's the only dwarf who can use it, and run your "Make Horn Crafts" jobs from there. Your trainee Bone Carvers, meanwhile, are busy with "Make bone bolts / R" at the workshop that's set to be usable by anyone from Dabbling through Grand Master.
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Popokolara

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Re: Seeking help from Experienced players.
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2014, 03:23:24 am »

Quote

Quote
I dug a canal to the edge of the map to make the water safely flow off the boundaries and not flood my fortres but fun ensued.Is it impossible to create an artifical branch of the river flowing off the map?
You cannot dig (or build walls) on the very edge of the map. But you CAN still drain fluids, by digging a tunnel as close to the edge as you can, and then on the very last tile, Smooth it, and then Carve Fortifications. Fluids such as water can flow through fortifications, even off the map.

Genius.I hate you for not thinking of this myself

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SixOfSpades

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Re: Seeking help from Experienced players.
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2014, 12:59:03 pm »

Quote

Quote
I dug a canal to the edge of the map to make the water safely flow off the boundaries and not flood my fortres but fun ensued.Is it impossible to create an artifical branch of the river flowing off the map?
You cannot dig (or build walls) on the very edge of the map. But you CAN still drain fluids, by digging a tunnel as close to the edge as you can, and then on the very last tile, Smooth it, and then Carve Fortifications. Fluids such as water can flow through fortifications, even off the map.

Genius.I hate you for not thinking of this myself
Important Note: When making aqueducts/drains (especially if they're only 1 tile wide), make sure to pave the bottom with constructed floors or roads. If the aqueduct is always filled with water it's not an issue, but if it ever dries, the water will leave mud, and mud can grow trees, which block all movement, including water. You don't want to have to dig a second drain just to drain your drain, and/or sacrifice the life of a miner/woodcutter, so just pave the thing before you flood it.
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