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Author Topic: V.4i Henteldentebi - Kobold Submarine Challenge  (Read 8025 times)

CptCrunchy

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Re: V.4i Henteldentebi - Kobold Submarine Challenge
« Reply #75 on: March 20, 2014, 07:16:17 pm »

The captain goes down with his ship.  Would it be possible to do another submarine fort but break your no traps rule just until the submarine part is actually set up?
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mahrgell

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Re: V.4i Henteldentebi - Kobold Submarine Challenge
« Reply #76 on: March 20, 2014, 07:23:07 pm »

named Kobold summary:

Mahrgell:
number of Kobolds: 4
number of kills: 2+2+15+18 = 37 (not sure how this happened...didn't do anything for this)

Razorback:
number of Kobolds: 2
number of kills: 4+0 = 4

CptCrunchy:
number of Kobolds: 4
number of kills: 1+1+3+9 = 14

Jonross:
number of Kobolds: 2
number of kills: 9+0 = 9

Palu:
number of Kobolds: 6
number of kills: 0+8+10+4+0+0 = 22

Temptsfate:
number of Kobolds: 4
number of kills: 0+0+1+2 = 3

Kingu:
number of Kobolds: 3
number of kills: 4+5+8 = 17

kamikazi:
number of Kobolds: 1
number of kills: 5

Fairin:
number of Kobolds: 2
number of kills: 0+0 = 0

dawn(ofdarkness):
number of Kobolds: 3
number of kills: 0+7+0 = 7

Lmeire:
number of Kobolds: 3
number of kills: 0+9+10 = 19

Arcvasti:
number of Kobolds: 4
number of kills: 0+25+3+4 = 32 (his second incarnation has 9 named kills, mostly invaders... that was the druid)

Tenderroast:
number of Kobolds: 3
number of kills: 1+8+1 = 10

mahrgell

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Re: V.4i Henteldentebi - Kobold Submarine Challenge
« Reply #77 on: March 20, 2014, 07:30:39 pm »

The captain goes down with his ship.  Would it be possible to do another submarine fort but break your no traps rule just until the submarine part is actually set up?

Yeah, I'm thinking about it.
Sadly I have no idea, how to properly do it. This fortress survived the first year, because the coyote was swimming for half a year...
Even with weapontraps it is damn hard to stop the onslaught of animals... (as you require quite a number of traps). And setting it up requires time, which needs some lucky sea animal spawn... (but enough bones at first, to make the mechanisms and spikes)
I thought of using dedicated militia, with proper equipment, which should make short work of the animals, but would probably dodge into the sea...

best would be some way to wallin an animal to prevent further spawns.... Then it would be only the seasonal invaders, which are quite challenging, but may be possible to beat, when not spending more then half the time fighting animals and trying to recover from those...

But such a wallin is again difficult to do... Sure drawbridges, blabla... But first you have to get the blocks to build it, and then you need some time to build it, and then you have to actually catch an animal with it...

I can actually give you the unused world and you can try embarking on the location... You will have nightmares of coyotes, trust me....

palu

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Re: V.4i Henteldentebi - Kobold Submarine Challenge
« Reply #78 on: March 20, 2014, 07:46:40 pm »

Why don't you set up traps? Are they against your rules? You could set up some nasty bridge traps to drop them into the ocean.

Quote from: Marhgell at some point
No boring exploits
He only said cage traps. I'm sure a few weapon traps, probably with no-quality mechanisms, wouldn't be too boring.
Edit: Actually wrote this before the last update, it did'nt post until now for some reason.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 07:52:11 pm by palu »
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Carsius

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Re: V.4i Henteldentebi - Kobold Submarine Challenge
« Reply #79 on: March 20, 2014, 08:01:38 pm »

The captain goes down with his ship.  Would it be possible to do another submarine fort but break your no traps rule just until the submarine part is actually set up?

Yeah, I'm thinking about it.
Sadly I have no idea, how to properly do it. This fortress survived the first year, because the coyote was swimming for half a year...
Even with weapontraps it is damn hard to stop the onslaught of animals... (as you require quite a number of traps). And setting it up requires time, which needs some lucky sea animal spawn... (but enough bones at first, to make the mechanisms and spikes)
I thought of using dedicated militia, with proper equipment, which should make short work of the animals, but would probably dodge into the sea...

best would be some way to wallin an animal to prevent further spawns.... Then it would be only the seasonal invaders, which are quite challenging, but may be possible to beat, when not spending more then half the time fighting animals and trying to recover from those...

But such a wallin is again difficult to do... Sure drawbridges, blabla... But first you have to get the blocks to build it, and then you need some time to build it, and then you have to actually catch an animal with it...

I can actually give you the unused world and you can try embarking on the location... You will have nightmares of coyotes, trust me....

Honestly, I think your best course of action would be to try another race- one which perhaps doesn't invoke the wrath of every sentient race simultaneously.
Gnomes would rid you of your wildlife problem, and orcs/dwarves/locks are much better suited to combat than bolds are.

I'd really love to see a unique challenge playthrough like this take off, but it seems that you're adding too much challenge as-is, even before you consider the submarine megaproject.
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mahrgell

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Re: V.4i Henteldentebi - Kobold Submarine Challenge
« Reply #80 on: March 20, 2014, 09:56:43 pm »

The captain goes down with his ship.  Would it be possible to do another submarine fort but break your no traps rule just until the submarine part is actually set up?

Yeah, I'm thinking about it.
Sadly I have no idea, how to properly do it. This fortress survived the first year, because the coyote was swimming for half a year...
Even with weapontraps it is damn hard to stop the onslaught of animals... (as you require quite a number of traps). And setting it up requires time, which needs some lucky sea animal spawn... (but enough bones at first, to make the mechanisms and spikes)
I thought of using dedicated militia, with proper equipment, which should make short work of the animals, but would probably dodge into the sea...

best would be some way to wallin an animal to prevent further spawns.... Then it would be only the seasonal invaders, which are quite challenging, but may be possible to beat, when not spending more then half the time fighting animals and trying to recover from those...

But such a wallin is again difficult to do... Sure drawbridges, blabla... But first you have to get the blocks to build it, and then you need some time to build it, and then you have to actually catch an animal with it...

I can actually give you the unused world and you can try embarking on the location... You will have nightmares of coyotes, trust me....

Honestly, I think your best course of action would be to try another race- one which perhaps doesn't invoke the wrath of every sentient race simultaneously.
Gnomes would rid you of your wildlife problem, and orcs/dwarves/locks are much better suited to combat than bolds are.

I'd really love to see a unique challenge playthrough like this take off, but it seems that you're adding too much challenge as-is, even before you consider the submarine megaproject.

As i said, I didn't think, it would be that hard from a survival point of view. And honestly... Normal invaders... I think I could fend them off. What was really causing the issues were the bugged animals. (And yes, I consider it a bug, that on a map with 5% land, 95% ocean you still get >90% land animals spawned, but no sea animals, and then they attack you right away, due to lack of space)
But as it is, the animals are posing a huge problem for my Bolds, unless I would be able to capture one alive (afaik caged animals allow respawns, so I would really have to trap it with bridges or something similar....)

The submarine challenge itself was actually quite interesting, as I planned it without the ability to mine out stone. Sadly it seems, Kobolds are now able to do mine through stone, which would have made the whole thing fairly trivial. (even when following the rules I set about not digging into the top10 z layers)

So there were quite a few surprises for me this run:
a) animals - explained more then enough
b) picks mine everything - explained above,reduces the fun of the submarine challenge
c) the awful equipment management - it seems impossible to force civilians into uniforms... this makes a 'everybody is in the militia' camp quite difficult to realize and prone to failure
d) the terrible mechanics around drinks for druids - when relying on pure water and having very few drinks in barrels, making druids is really annoying and close to impossible (well, if using a ton of locked doors etc blabla it is possible)
e) The percentage chances with those tunnels are completely nonsense

But all together... I think, when I could manage to survive the first year without too much pain, I could make it to the goal, with what I have learned this time... I just have to tune the embark for a bit...

Oh, and i quickly checked the map... There is a similar embark spot nearby, just with the landmass being in the topright corner. I may use that one for the next attempt.

Arcvasti

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Re: V.4i Henteldentebi - Kobold Submarine Challenge
« Reply #81 on: March 20, 2014, 10:13:39 pm »

I'm actually surprised that so many land animals spawned. On normal embarks, when I rely on hunting, every 2nd or 3rd animal spawn group is a harmless bird of some kind. Fewer air animals must be allowed on ocean embarks. It doesn't that Masterwork adds tons of new land creatures, but very few sea creatures. I think a lot of biome restriction needs to hapen for Masterwork creatures to avoid either incidents like this or forest spiders in a glacier.

As for militia, I've found that using "replace clothing" and assigning them specific items is the best way. Of course, that sort of relies on having them in the military full time. I'm pretty sure there's some "wear uniform when off-duty" toggle, buried in the labyrinthine depths of the military interface.

I personally believe a lot of the problem comes from invaders with steel and mithral coming early. I seem to recall there being a way to turn material levels and invasion requirements somewhere in the GUI thingy. You might want to consider that if this challenge proves too ridiculous.

As for dodging into the sea, maybe some walled walkways over the water would reduce casualties. I don't think that would be against your conducts and might help in some cases.
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Fairin

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Re: V.4i Henteldentebi - Kobold Submarine Challenge
« Reply #82 on: March 21, 2014, 01:56:14 am »

oh trust me. me and them forest spiders do -not- get along

i vote warlocks next. (still a submarine challange!) since i'm really enjoying them right meow =)

building a tower over a large river hehe, my 4 military ghouls have like.. 200 kills apiece in year 4.. therapist says they're level 500+ fighters.. hehehehe, they need to eat more souls...
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Dawnofdarkness

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Re: V.4i Henteldentebi - Kobold Submarine Challenge
« Reply #83 on: March 21, 2014, 10:37:34 am »

Well I hope that things work out better in round two then they did in this round. Even though it was going great at first also im just saying id like another bold or whatever race you do in the next fortress it can be just dawn also instead of dawnofdarkness. As for my vote I say go with whatever cause these forts are fun to follow.
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palu

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Re: V.4i Henteldentebi - Kobold Submarine Challenge
« Reply #84 on: March 21, 2014, 06:04:00 pm »

I'd like to be dorfed/bolded/locked/orced/gnomed in your next fort if you don't mind, no particular profession, but preferably something dangerous like military.
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Tenderroast

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Re: V.4i Henteldentebi - Kobold Submarine Challenge
« Reply #85 on: March 21, 2014, 11:13:41 pm »

whatever you do next, add me to the list of names. Doesnt matter what my job is, you do a great job of writing about all of them.
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kingu

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Re: V.4i Henteldentebi - Kobold Submarine Challenge
« Reply #86 on: March 22, 2014, 08:07:07 am »

What was the original wilderness level?

I have found it to be very hard to play any cobold fort without using exploits. I am now on my third try at bulding an above ground wood/bone fort at an "Untamed wilds embark" Early invaders are wicked hard and a bunch of giant black mambas (holy hell I underrestemated these) or giant dire lions will wipe your fort clean if they arrive early on and you are playing without doors or drawbridges.


I have enjoyed this thread more than any other and I would very much like to see another try. Perhaps building a long bridge early on to be able to move the cobolds away from instant attack range and/or equiping everyone with ranged weapons?

In any case. Thanks for the ride!
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kingu

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Re: V.4i Henteldentebi - Kobold Submarine Challenge
« Reply #87 on: March 22, 2014, 08:19:13 am »

also. what QSP setup do you guys use? I dont really like to use them but with kobolds building with bone I am knee-deep in leather and refuse :)
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mahrgell

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Re: V.4i Henteldentebi - Kobold Submarine Challenge
« Reply #88 on: March 22, 2014, 08:43:16 am »

Few things:
Biome: The map tells me 'calm' for the entire world... Yes, I didn't find a single spot, that wasn't 'calm' If what had happened is the definition of calm, then yeah... have fun...

Against the first few animals: drakes are your best friends. Really! They kill about everything the wilderness can throw at you, even lions. Problem is, that they dodged into the water quite early in this run. And they have trouble with armored invaders, of course. Also bumrushing with all Kobolds you have is quite fun and somehow effective, if there is someone that can deal damage among them (like someone with a weapon or a drake) If there is not, then you end in a blizzardmen desaster :D

long bridge: Sure... I would love to do that... Problem is the building material. You need quite an amount of bones or wood to realize a looooooong bridge.... And bones require some kills, which lead to more animals spawning^^ And then, you need some time to butcher the corpses, etc... Of course, you could also do it via butchering jackrats... Problem in last game again was the fail embark (no adult males) and the fact that I lost 20 jackrats to the first animal attacks... So I couldn't butcher the remaining ones.
And once I had my initial setup, I didn't have the time to move much further back, because I was constantly busy.
Still, in my next attempt I will surely try to get some more space between my Kobolds and the land... That's why I said, I think with a better embark (itemwise and strategywise) I think this is doable, as there are many improvements over this attempt.

ranged weapons: I don't consider them a valid option the way I play Kobolds... (of course, when playing with a less suicidish style, they would be good^^) There are few problems:
a) ammo: bone ammo simply doesn't cut it against basic armor... and I can't really afford poisons, I feel. So while it may be decent against animals, the whole defense would fall apart against invaders, and in the end, while animals may be a huge annoyance, the invaders are the real threat... and while it is possible to get a decent metalbar income from stealing, it is much easier to make one machete for each bold then constantly supplying them with ammo. Also you have to remember that, until I can finally steal the magma generator (which is damn risky...) I have to burn wood for coke... And my wood supply is limited to what i bring at embark, and I need a fair amount of wood for certain buildings... (e.g. thieves tunnels require wood)
b) equipping them - with the peoples militia I use here (again, this is completely for fun, I could just use 2 Bold squads and game would be boring) melee weapons have a huuuuuuge advantage. Stupid bolds only have to grab a single item, to be somehow effective in combat... And often they even fail at that.... With ranged weaponry they would have to grab 3 items... (launcher, quiver, ammo) This will NEVER work out in panicmode... Problem here is that they love to drop their stuff whereever they feel like, once the squad is deactivated...
This problem could be somehow reduced, If I could use stockpiles with those items near the meeting/staging area. But this fails due to lack of minecarts/space. With QSP this would be no problem(and manually QSP'ing is no option, as it would have to be done after every fight, aka every two weeks) , or if I would have enough space to store 20 weapons/quiver and 100 stacks of ammo... But this requires 140 tiles i certainly don't have easily available. For the next attempt I'm considering making one or two permanent militia squads, then I could also use some ranged weaponry for those...

QSP: As i wrote in the dwarves general thread... minecart QSP all the way... I don't see much use in the other ones... That's why the magma generator is soooooooo good to have... minecarts+magma = pure awesome

kingu

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Re: V.4i Henteldentebi - Kobold Submarine Challenge
« Reply #89 on: March 22, 2014, 10:17:39 am »

Calm? lol you should try untamed wilds :) the first few seasons are like russian roulette :D

Honeybadgers are fun if you decide to go without drakes. They might be a bit overrated as war animals but they are sheap if you train them yourself and they multipy pretty quickly. (Also you can make Giant ones later)

I might have stubled upon some other way of making QSP using stockpiles over an empty space but I must test it first. I will get back to that after the weekend if successful.

I see now how ranged weapons would fail...

Chained drakes in the beginning? it seems they are more valuble than Bolds so who cares if some animals go around them killing some Bolds.
If you can just defend and butcher the wildlife would it be possible to be somewhat off-shore when the first enemies arrive?

Yeah I know I should just try myself and I will but I am currently just learning to play kobold using an easyer embark (wich is still too bloody hard for me)
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