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Author Topic: A "no metal except picks" defense challenge, turned to 11.  (Read 1816 times)

Nuoya

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A "no metal except picks" defense challenge, turned to 11.
« on: March 07, 2014, 10:58:25 pm »

A lot of typical challenges wear off after the first year or so. For example, even in the evilest of biomes, if you get dug in and set up some cage traps you'll probably be fine until a deadly dust FB gets to you. The goal here is to have a challenge that continues well into the later years of a fort. The seiges will get bigger and the titans more frequent but the military won't ever be developing beyond sticks and rocks. So I decided I'd like to try this challenge out, add a few caveats (and possibly edits to this post...), and above all make a bit of a plan first before I jump into it.

First and foremost I have a worldgen that I quite like, with ridiculous savagery, zombified biomes, dozens of volcanoes, 500 titans, very few children survive worldgen, and of course there's rather large goblin seiges. It's essentially vanilla DF, even the original tile set which I prefer, but I admit that I have edited almost every animal except domestic ones to be tamable and war trainable (cave crocs are my favorite). I've also used a lot of FPS-gaining-modifications and also some flavor mods, like, all animals create the same bones and leather, all "brown" trees create the same wood, a lot of junk stones and alloys don't even exist, crundles are less common, elephants and rhinos can survive grazing, and GCSs can breed. There is also MUCH less clothing types. That's most of it. It's definitely "almost" pure DF in my opinion.

Ground Rules:
-Use as challenging of a worldgen as you're comfortable with
-Use whatever embark profile you want, but no metal weapons or armor except picks. An anvil is ok
-Embark is 2x2 which will strictly limit your wood supply and invaders start closer to you
-Part of the map must be a reanimating zombie biome, hopefully with zombie Yaks or Harpies or other such challenges
-You may forge picks at any time, and you may use any bars of your choice for artifact moods, but they can't be used by the military
-However, artifact wood, stone, or bone weapons/armor may be used
-Keep a lowish population cap, perhaps 100, so it's not so easy to meat sponge seiges and zombie hordes

Economy:
-The trade depot is not wagon accessible. You will still get "enough" things brought to you like wood and cloth, but it won't be very much.
-No caravans (only traders on foot) means humans and dwarves won't bring their armies in to help defend you
-You can trade anything you want but it won't matter because there won't be very much to buy
-You probably don't want to waste dwarves on crafting stuff anyway when they could be training
-Anytime you buy or "acquire" metal items you should dump them or melt them into bars immediately
-A wooden training axe can cut trees, don't use metal

Metal:
-You can smelt if you want to
-You can even forge things to level your smiths if you want to, but you need to immediately melt the stuff and never use it
-You may only have one anvil and one forge in your fort and it ought to be in a seclusive area deep away from the main fort
-Metal blocks, furniture, chains, etc are not permissible. Melt them.
-You may set up artifact metal furniture in your fort
-Artifact metal weapons and armor must be horded away in a vault, unusable by military

Military Armor:
-Bone greaves, gauntlets, helmets
-Leather armor, helms, high boots
-Leather or wood shields
-Elven wooden armor
-Layered cloth/leather cloaks, hoods, trousers, mittens, and socks (seriously, you want these, every little % helps)
-Leather quivers, backbacks
-Leather or glass flasks
-No mail shirts :(

Military Weapons:
-Wooden or Bone Crossbows and Wooden or Bone Bolts
-Obsidian Swords
-Wooden training spears, training axes, training swords
-Elven wood weapons
-Wrestling
-Shield Bashing

Military General:
-War animals of any type are fine, mod what you want. The best ones are probably in the caverns.
-Ballista and catapults certainly can be used with only wood and stone
-Feel free to use whatever you can capture; minotaurs, necromancers, werecreatures
-No danger rooms or upright-spike-falling-training. Go train on troglodytes and local wildlife.

Defense Plans:
-There is always a path into your fort and the path does not change or oscillate
-You can use locked doors or hatches but not wall-ins or drawbridges
-You may only use bridges for engineering projects, everything else, like going over a moat, is floors or paved roads
-You may not use atom-smashing bridges or cave-ins to kill the invaders
-You can use channels, moats, z-levels, cliffs, pits, etc
-You can use water
-You can use magma but you'll either need nether cap magma pumps or a magma piston or a volcano
-For both water and magma defenses you need to use doors and floodgates at the trap entrance, not bridges. An unbreakable artifact floodgate would be nice

Traps:
-You can build as many levers or pressure plates as you want and as many hatches, doors, floodgates, grates, etc as you want
-You can only build 1 cage/weapon/stone/spike trap per season. You may not assemble your first trap until Summer.
-Weapons and cages in the traps can't be metal
-Unfortunately, you may only use masterwork core quality mechanisms and weapons and cages in your traps. Start leveling immediately and recycle your cages!
-Obviously if you make it to year 5 then you can have 20 traps around the map, but will you have 20 masterwork mechanisms and cages?
-You can rearrange your traps at any time.

Tools:
-You can use dfhack bugfixes, clean all, clean owned, prospect, reveal, showmood, temperature fixes, FPS fixes, cursecheck, and embark anywhere
-You can only use autodump if something got stuck underwater or inside a fortification or something
-You can't use fastdwarf, siren, liquids, removebadthoughts, or create item
-You can savescum if your having fun

Reward:
-Everytime your fort successfuly creates a true artifact (not simply the military named weapons or armor) you must make an individual and personalized vault, or showcase area, or fortress defense contraption for it
-After you set the artifact in it's proper place and surround it with guard dogs you may approach the anvil
-You are entitled to forge exactly one masterwork metal item of your choice for each true artifact your dwarves have created. Melt anything else.
-You can "save up" the masterwork items that you are entitled to and make them later, but you can never melt, trade away, or redo it.
-Choose wisely.
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Nuoya

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Re: A "no metal except picks" defense challenge, turned to 11.
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2014, 09:24:18 am »

As some of you may know, sometimes the first challenge is finding the perfect embark area. There's already some constraints set in stone:

-Evil biome with reanimating corpses
-At war with goblins
-2x2 embark area

Now, compounding this is our defense limitations. Wooden swords, no traps at all in the first season, no metal armor, no draw bridges. We can't even embark with crossbows; bone and wood crossbows aren't an option at embark screen. The 2x2 embark area also means that hostiles start -extremely- close to your fort, and they attack quickly. We definitely want nature to be on our side in terms of fort layout.

-Surface river could be crucial, the applications are endless
-Frozen or freezing biomes can provide ice, another natural weapon
-Embarking into a mountain side with a natural concave is probably the best choice: we'll control the z-levels above the zombified area
-Bone bolts are probably the single best weapon we will ever have, we definitely want to be able to create an area where invaders spend a long time inside it, giving marksdwarves plenty of time to pepper them
-Some access to wood would be nice, but our mountain base definitely won't have trees. Bordering a haunted forest would be great.
-Our mountain base biome is NOT haunted: we can freely butcher and tan hides in that part of the map without reanimation
-A volcano is nice but would probably make things too easy for

Finally, I demand a few personal asthetic features
-I don't like having a ridiculous amount of z-levels above the ground level because it's hard to scan through all the items and creatures
-I also don't want a flat embark. There probably isnt time or resources to build a big walled fortress area. Carve INTO a mountain.
-Tiles on the edge of the embark can't be fixed or mined at all. Hopefully the embark area can be "trimmed" to a nice shape later on
-The caverns should be nice-looking ones

With this in mind I genned a few world with my ideal parameters and started scanning around, with a little help from dfhack reveal. I found a few promising embarks with nasty zombies, but reveal showed me potential problems. Some 2x2 embarks don't have candy and therefore no HFS. Some embarks look nice on the surface but the cavern layers are just a mess. Some evil biomes don't have zombies at all. Well, eventually I found a literally PERFECT embark area. It's a haunted chalk mountain with tetrahedrite veins, nice flat caverns full of trees, and a frozen river, and it doesn't reanimate, there's just wolverines and bears. To the east lies a haunted jungle full of zombie deer, ravens, and emus I have seen, though we'll see what else pops out.

However my dfhack reveal informs me of a serious problem.

There are no nether caps. Truly a disaster, this embark is PERFECT in almost every way. But there's not a single nether cap in the 3rd cavern, therefore they will never grow, and I'll never be able to pump magma within the constraints of the rules. That is... unless...

I copied the worldgen seed, reused it, and changed Mineral Scarcity by small increments in the advanced parameters, then regenerated the world a few times. Doing this does not change the geography of the world at all, but it will shuffle around civilizations, sites, history, good/neutral/evil biomes, and cavern content. You can get the same embark area that you had before, but find different creatures there, and different Forgotten Beasts and Titans will attack you later. You may also find different mineral content. Eventually I got a new and improved mountain, this time with all the resources that we could ever want.

Behold our site of future carnage:

http://mkv25.net/dfma/map-12043-furnacelung

I have left the game paused while I draw up some plans and try to figure out my best direction to take. I embarked with 2 axedwarves but their equipment is suboptimal: leather armor, leather helm, leather high boots, and cloaks, hoods, mittens, and socks. I also brought 6 dogs and 4 pigs, and I have 2 yak bulls. My food preparation is pretty good, and that will probably be the first thing I want to move inside.

Farms: 2 choices. I can use the river to irrigate an area inside the mountain and grow food there, or, I can go directly down to the caverns and set up farms, gather plants, and cut wood.

What kinds of defenses should I prepare, knowing that I can't use traps or draw bridges?
How can I best utilize the waterfall near me that freezes in winter and thaws in spring?
Should I immediately butcher the yaks and use their bones and leather? I would like to make gauntlets and greaves for my axedwarves...
But if migrants bring a yak cow then I could have some serious animal husbandry going on.
Should I set up a masonry shop outside immediatly and start making doors and blocks?

I have 2 miners, 2 mason/axedwarves, 1 mason/smith, 1 carpenter/mechanic, and 1 farmer.
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Meme

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Re: A "no metal except picks" defense challenge, turned to 11.
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2014, 09:34:36 am »

I'm not very experienced on the matter, but I think we will have to know the EXACT modifications you used to gen this world, otherwise you have the butterfly effect, where changing one tag, say making something tame-able, changes the whole world.
Otherwise, looks great! Can't wait to try it!
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Sutremaine

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Re: A "no metal except picks" defense challenge, turned to 11.
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2014, 12:04:23 pm »

Reward:
-Everytime your fort successfuly creates a true artifact (not simply the military named weapons or armor) you must make an individual and personalized vault, or showcase area, or fortress defense contraption for it
Doesn't strike me as much of a reward, especially if you're busy with something else.

Quote
-You are entitled to forge exactly one masterwork metal item of your choice for each true artifact your dwarves have created. Melt anything else.
-You can "save up" the masterwork items that you are entitled to and make them later, but you can never melt, trade away, or redo it.
-Choose wisely.
Why choose wisely? You're not allowed to use anything made of metal.
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I am trying to make chickens lay bees as eggs. So far it only produces a single "Tame Small Creature" when a hen lays bees.
Honestly at the time, I didn't see what could go wrong with crowding 80 military Dwarves into a small room with a necromancer for the purpose of making bacon.

Loci

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Re: A "no metal except picks" defense challenge, turned to 11.
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2014, 02:30:16 pm »

However my dfhack reveal informs me of a serious problem.

There are no nether caps. Truly a disaster, this embark is PERFECT in almost every way. But there's not a single nether cap in the 3rd cavern, therefore they will never grow, and I'll never be able to pump magma within the constraints of the rules.

What about glass?
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Philii

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Re: A "no metal except picks" defense challenge, turned to 11.
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2014, 06:02:52 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Sorry for Grammar.

SixOfSpades

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Re: A "no metal except picks" defense challenge, turned to 11.
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2014, 08:26:49 pm »

Thought: Abuse moods to find everybody with a preference for weapons or armor, and train them to be Gem Cutters. Diamonds are incredibly rare, so you're not going to get a diamond sword, but a pyrite warhammer might be feasible. And talk about bling.

Quote
Everytime your fort successfuly creates a true artifact you must make a . . . fortress defense contraption for it
I consider a Legendary warrior to be a perfectly valid fortress defense contraption.
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Larix

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Re: A "no metal except picks" defense challenge, turned to 11.
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2014, 09:05:10 pm »

Gem moods, like glassworking moods, can only make crafts and furniture.
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Strange_mood#Artifacts_created

Bonecarving moods can create about anything, but bone's a very poor weapon material. I don't see how you're going to achieve much with military with those restrictiongs - all nonmetal melee weapons are complete garbage, wooden shields are very poor at bashing, so you're pretty much restricted to crossbows. What can you actually use to defend yourself? Drowning traps and crossbows and practically nothing else of note? Ho hum.

Although you haven't explicitly excluded minecarts loaded with ore, but they're so ridiculously effective that it wouldn't be much of a challenge, either.
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Grim Portent

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Re: A "no metal except picks" defense challenge, turned to 11.
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2014, 09:38:56 pm »

A legendary dwarf with a wooden sword can still kill most goblins with little hassle.
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There once was a dwarf in a cave,
who many would consider brave.
With a head like a block
he went out for a sock,
his ass I won't bother to save.

Nuoya

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Re: A "no metal except picks" defense challenge, turned to 11.
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2014, 01:16:38 am »

I'm not very experienced on the matter, but I think we will have to know the EXACT modifications you used to gen this world, otherwise you have the butterfly effect, where changing one tag, say making something tame-able, changes the whole world.
Otherwise, looks great! Can't wait to try it!

http://www.4shared.com/rar/-73rLwZKba/Furnacelung.html

This is a 33MB .rar archive with this embark already started. I set up a few stockpiles and the initial military. There's also a designated staircase that will go down to cavern 1. I decided to give my entire DF folder instead of just the world-gen params because I have changed a LOT of things like: types of stones, entity/civilization tokens, and some other things that might or might not affect worldgen.



Quote
-You are entitled to forge exactly one masterwork metal item of your choice for each true artifact your dwarves have created. Melt anything else.
-You can "save up" the masterwork items that you are entitled to and make them later, but you can never melt, trade away, or redo it.
-Choose wisely.

Why choose wisely? You're not allowed to use anything made of metal.

Living without Metal is certainly a great challenge feature, but also just undwarven in many ways. I think if you create an altar for the forge and adequate flair and trappings for each of your artifact vaults, then, you deserve to create exactly one metal item per completed mood. Making a choice will obviously be difficult, it could be a masterwork steel battle axe, or maybe a candy mail shirt, or a platinum statue for your noble.



However my dfhack reveal informs me of a serious problem.

There are no nether caps. Truly a disaster, this embark is PERFECT in almost every way. But there's not a single nether cap in the 3rd cavern, therefore they will never grow, and I'll never be able to pump magma within the constraints of the rules.

What about glass?

I had to re-gen this embark many many times to capture all of the elements that I needed. Sometimes there was clay and sand, sometimes neither. In this case there's no sand anywhere on the map, not even the caverns. I THINK there might be ways to use cave-ins to change the soil content of an area but I'm not sure. There's also always dfhack. I think I'll just have to survive on imported sand bags if I want glass.



I have been defeated before summer quite a few times now. Zombie emu's are no joke and my dogs and axedwarves get brained pretty handily. Obviously a legendary dwarf would be able to block and doge their attacks and hack them without any problems, but since training exploits aren't allowed, it takes at LEAST two or three years (depending on how much combat they see) to get up to that level. I'm sticking to my guns: I'm trying to "trim" the mountain face into a nice shape and set up the outer defenses before I get too focused on digging down and setting up the industry.



EDIT: Some comments on military

First of all, I made 2 mistakes in the military uniform in the packaged save above. The number of cloaks is wrong, and I forgot to [r]eplace uniform. If you want to set up the full military uniforms it should look EXACTLY like this:

Armor
-Leather Armor
-Cloak
-Cloak
-Cloak
-Cloak
-Cloak
-Cloak
-Cloak
-Cloak
-Cloak
(9 cloaks)

Head
-Helm
-Hood
-Hood
-Hood
-Hood
-Hood
-Hood
(6 Hoods)

Legs
-Greaves
-Trousers
-Trousers

Hands
-Gauntlets
-Mittens

Feet
-Socks
-Socks
-High Boots
-High Boots

Shields
-Shield

Weapon
-Training Axe, Training Sword, Training Spear, Mace, Crossbow (Hammer Dwarves), [empty] for wrestlers, Crossbow (For Marksdwarves)

Press [r] to [r]eplace clothing

Set up the schedule as you please.



The Traning Axes, Swords, and Spears are obvious. If I get migrants with axe,sword,spear skill then I'll just throw them in that squad. But maces? Well, I'm keeping track of dwarves who have preferences for maces and turning off all labors except for bonecarving. If they get a mood, they'll make a bone mace. And hammer dwarves? Well I can't make bone or wood hammers, but, crossbows use hammer skill. I'll try to get some bloodthorn wood and make crossbows out of them, give them to the hammer squad, and disable any ammunition for them. Wrestlers can luckily do their thing without any weapon, and giving them a shield is optional.

All in all I will have 10 squads.

Axe (training axe)
Sword (training sword or obsidian sword)
Spear (training spear)
Mace (artifact bone)
Hammer (crossbow but no ammo)
Hand to Hand (wrestling and shield bashing)
Crossbow x4 (with bone bolts)

And when the migrants come I'll throw them into the appropriate squad
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 05:39:01 am by Nuoya »
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Larix

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Re: A "no metal except picks" defense challenge, turned to 11.
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2014, 07:22:27 am »

I used a non-metal squad exclusively for beating up elven caravans for a few years. Each fight took quite a while, because wooden weapons have a hard time doing damage even through one layer of rope reed fibre cloth, even when used by a great or master weapon user. I used elf-produced wooden swords and spears instead of the training versions, but that didn't seem to make much difference against the wooden training axes. I've never tried this kind of stunt against hostile units. It might turn out much worse against units that actually fight back and especially against those who wear metal armour themselves: an arena test suggests crossbows, even metal ones, are less deadly against foes with basic metal armour than barefisted punches. Crossbows _always_ bounced off metal breastplates and helms.

I wish you luck, but i'm just not gonna try this.
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Aristion

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Re: A "no metal except picks" defense challenge, turned to 11.
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2014, 10:39:05 am »

I am currently trying it out and before the first year is done, a Weremonitor lizard apears and I'm not sure what it was that was the werebeast.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 10:44:05 am by Aristion »
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Henny

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Re: A "no metal except picks" defense challenge, turned to 11.
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2014, 07:42:53 pm »

I modded in the following in obsidian (with rather arbitrary values):

Code: [Select]
[IMPACT_YIELD:350000]
[IMPACT_FRACTURE:770000]
[IMPACT_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:175]
[COMPRESSIVE_YIELD:350000]
[COMPRESSIVE_FRACTURE:770000]
[COMPRESSIVE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:175]
[TENSILE_YIELD:33000]
[TENSILE_FRACTURE:33000]
[TENSILE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:50]
[SHEAR_YIELD:33000]
[SHEAR_FRACTURE:33000]
[SHEAR_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:100]
[BENDING_YIELD:33000]
[BENDING_FRACTURE:33000]
[BENDING_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:50]

I also added [CAN_STONE] to warhammer.

Is it in the spirit of the challenge? Does it even make sense?
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Loci

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Re: A "no metal except picks" defense challenge, turned to 11.
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2014, 09:13:38 pm »

However my dfhack reveal informs me of a serious problem.

There are no nether caps. Truly a disaster, this embark is PERFECT in almost every way. But there's not a single nether cap in the 3rd cavern, therefore they will never grow, and I'll never be able to pump magma within the constraints of the rules.

What about glass?

I had to re-gen this embark many many times to capture all of the elements that I needed. Sometimes there was clay and sand, sometimes neither. In this case there's no sand anywhere on the map, not even the caverns. I THINK there might be ways to use cave-ins to change the soil content of an area but I'm not sure. There's also always dfhack. I think I'll just have to survive on imported sand bags if I want glass.

Sorry; I wasn't clear. Glass makes perfectly serviceable magma pumps, and it's (almost?) always available from traders, so all the re-genning for nethercaps was rather unnecessary.
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Nuoya

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Re: A "no metal except picks" defense challenge, turned to 11.
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2014, 09:47:55 pm »

I modded in the following in obsidian (with rather arbitrary values):

Code: [Select]
[IMPACT_YIELD:350000]
[IMPACT_FRACTURE:770000]
[IMPACT_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:175]
[COMPRESSIVE_YIELD:350000]
[COMPRESSIVE_FRACTURE:770000]
[COMPRESSIVE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:175]
[TENSILE_YIELD:33000]
[TENSILE_FRACTURE:33000]
[TENSILE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:50]
[SHEAR_YIELD:33000]
[SHEAR_FRACTURE:33000]
[SHEAR_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:100]
[BENDING_YIELD:33000]
[BENDING_FRACTURE:33000]
[BENDING_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:50]

I also added [CAN_STONE] to warhammer.

Is it in the spirit of the challenge? Does it even make sense?

I would say so, there's definitely a lot of creativity involved in the defense and military set-ups which is making it fun for me. To be honest I feel like we ought to be able to make simple hatchets and hammers out of any stone. I haven't bothered modding such reactions, though, since the crossbow-hammers seem to be... well, they're equippable at least, and hopefully shields and dodging lets them stall long enough for the bone-bolt marksdwarves to start killing. They're absolutely the most effective fighters with these military restrictions, but they need the targets to be "held" or "tanked" in an area far-ish away from them.

I built some simple above-ground hospitalities; meeting hall, dormitory, and some barrackses. In the mean time I've finally been able to fend off the zombies (dear god, the emu corpses and panda corpses have been giving me headaches, not to mention ravens causing job cancellation spam) which is giving me enough free time to carve away at the cliff face. I'm going to have a sheer cliff pretty soon, and once I reach that point I'll actually go INTO the mountain for the first time and see what I can come up with in terms of traps and defense strategies.

I have some masterwork chalk mechanisms at this point, but I don't have any masterwork trap components to put in them yet. Luckily a high master carpenter migrated, who should be able to provide masterwork menacing spikes and cage traps. Wood is currently a problem, however, I haven't even dug down one square, let alone gotten into the caverns, so there's bound to be absolutely bountiful wood supplies down there to spam traps and ballista parts.

Overall the environment has been surprisingly bountiful despite my refusal to dig down yet. I can grow rope reeds for cloth and phantom spiders are also providing silk. The never-ending zombie trains can be butchered for leather and bones. And chalk mechanisms make pretty good, although heavy, export products.

I just fended off my first ambush, surprisingly successful (definitely credit to the marksdwarves), though I have about 6 or 7 military dwarves in the hospital now and all my war animal meat shields died.
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