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Author Topic: Battle Brothers - a turn based strategy RPG mix  (Read 210976 times)

Jaysen

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Re: Battle Brothers - a turn based strategy RPG mix
« Reply #405 on: July 01, 2015, 07:29:00 am »

Fatigue is felt much more, which can make it harder in some situation. The only complaint I have is that it's even more annoying to hunt down the survivors of the enemy group, since your troops are slowed, can rarely hit more than once, etc. A group of undead can effectively wear you down, but I wish there was something once there's only one or 2 enemies (and you're still 10), and everyone's exhausted. Though, that happened before too.


We are working on a flee-mechanic that will allow the last few enemies to flee from the battlefield so that you do not have to chase them around any more. It will probably come with the next update!
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Jaysen

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Re: Battle Brothers - a turn based strategy RPG mix
« Reply #406 on: July 02, 2015, 10:19:42 am »

I just spoke about that retreating mechanic and here it is! We have it in todays update:

Quote
Dev Blog #44: Retreating Enemies

This week’s update adds a new feature to the game - enemies can now retreat from battle! Also, we’ve added a new weapon, a new armor, and a bunch of new events. Existing events have been tweaked a bit for more balanced outcomes and trigger conditions, and the bugs that surfaced after last week’s larger update have been fixed.

Retreating Enemies

Chasing that last surviving bandit marksman on a forest map isn’t always that fun, so non-undead enemies now have the ability to retreat from the battlefield should they perceive there to be no chance of winning the encounter. Just like the player, the AI has to reach the map border in order to retreat safely, giving you the chance to intercept them if you want to let noone escape, or get all the loot.



Whether an AI combatant retreats or not depends on a few factors, such as how many of his allies are still with him, how many have already fallen, and how many men the player still has. For the time being, the AI will not attempt to flee a battle from the beginning, even if they’re outnumbered. The option of retreat is meant for the last few scattered survivors. The actual thresholds for when individual combatants make use of it may still need some numbers tweaking.

We know that this doesn’t solve the issue of chasing enemy archers across the map in its entirety, but it is a good step in the right direction that makes sense in the context of the game world. We’ll eventually introduce a few more tools that will enable the player to better handle such situations.

New Weapon

This week we introduce the Butcher’s Cleaver, a tool used for hacking through meat and bone. It is a low tier variant of the older Military Cleaver and a possible starting item for characters with the butcher background.




Changelog


Added ability for non-undead enemies to retreat from battle should they perceive there to be no chance of winning.
Added 8 new events.
Added Butcher's Cleaver as a lower tier variant of the Military Cleaver and a possible starting item for characters with the butcher background.
Added Werewolf Hide Armor.

Changed some events for more balanced outcomes and trigger conditions.
Changed out mood icons for better readable ones.
Changed Pathfinder perk to now also reduce the fatigue cost for movement to half.
Changed Necromancer to walk at a slightly less brisk pace across the battlefield.

Fixed quickload/quicksave unintentionally being disabled.
Fixed bug that had militia spawned with the Woodcutter's Axe show as unarmed and unable to take their turn in combat.
Fixed issue with savegames not loading correctly when the player has a Masterwork Bow. The savegames in question should now load correctly again.
Fixed time not pausing correctly when switching tasks.
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ThtblovesDF

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Re: Battle Brothers - a turn based strategy RPG mix
« Reply #407 on: July 02, 2015, 07:56:06 pm »

I find the concussion weapons or stamina damage is pretty much worthless, given how there is always more stamina invested then they lose (which would be fine), nearly no way to track enemy stamina loss and no reward for doing so. Would be lovly to take some prisoners, even in a simple system like warbands. I personally also really hate that there is only 2 starting scenarios for fights by the looks of it.
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Taricus

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Re: Battle Brothers - a turn based strategy RPG mix
« Reply #408 on: July 02, 2015, 09:11:46 pm »

Actually, fatigue damage has a VERY potent use with orcs, given the high fatigue their weapons require. a few good hits with a couple of maces can even bring a warlord to a halt.
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Jaysen

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Re: Battle Brothers - a turn based strategy RPG mix
« Reply #409 on: July 03, 2015, 02:43:47 am »

I find the concussion weapons or stamina damage is pretty much worthless, given how there is always more stamina invested then they lose (which would be fine), nearly no way to track enemy stamina loss and no reward for doing so. Would be lovly to take some prisoners, even in a simple system like warbands. I personally also really hate that there is only 2 starting scenarios for fights by the looks of it.

We will implement a deployment phase in time where you can freely set up your guys before combat. Cant give an exact ETA on that though.
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Kagus

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Re: Battle Brothers - a turn based strategy RPG mix
« Reply #410 on: July 03, 2015, 05:56:28 am »

Actually, fatigue damage has a VERY potent use with orcs, given the high fatigue their weapons require. a few good hits with a couple of maces can even bring a warlord to a halt.

Thing is, yeah, the weapons use a lot of fatigue, but orcs also have a massive amount of fatigue to play around with.  Also I don't know if it's actually been implemented yet, but I think the extra fatigue penalty on the weapons is only supposed to apply to humies, not the orcs themselves.

I mainly just use maces for stunning as a defensive measure.  Like, early game I'll give my archers a wooden club as a backup weapon.  If someone gets into melee range, they try and stun the enemy and then get out of the zone of control.  Other times when there's a beat-up brother up front and in danger of getting smacked, I'll stun one or more of them to buy him a little breathing room.  Other than that?  Not hugely impressed with them as weapons, simply because the stamina costs for using them are massive.

Speaking of which, I see there's been quite a lot of talk regarding the shield bash perk and what would make it more attractive.  Lots of suggestions for increased stamina damage or AP damage or even stunning.  Why not just have it reduce the cost of the shield bash skill?  I find it very useful even in un-upgraded form, the tiny damage added by the perk is just gravy, but I would very much like for it not to cost quite so much stamina.  I could definitely see taking it on more brothers if it reduced the cost of using the skill, and would tie in with Utility's fatigue management theme.

Jaysen

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Re: Battle Brothers - a turn based strategy RPG mix
« Reply #411 on: July 03, 2015, 09:11:18 am »

Good input on the shield bash perk! We are not really satisfied with it right now. Reducing the costs is definitely an option though.
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Jaysen

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Re: Battle Brothers - a turn based strategy RPG mix
« Reply #412 on: July 10, 2015, 07:19:12 am »

A new update has just been released introducing named items that are dropped by the most powerful enemies. The full changelog is at the end of the article:

Quote
Dev Blog #45: Named Items


This week’s update adds named items with unique looks and randomized stats as rare loot for the most powerful opponents, fixes a critical bug with last week’s retreat mechanic, adds some new events and includes quite a few balancing changes.

Named Items
As we see it, there are two problems with the item progression currently. Firstly, the player very quickly skips the lower tiers of weapons after just the first few battles because higher tier weapons generally drop as loot and are widely available for reasonable prices. And because mid to high tier equipment is available so soon, there is also little to buy or save for later in the game. This will be addressed with the next big update. Secondly, although the selection of weapons, shields and armor is ever-increasing, there is a distinct lack of reward when prevailing against the strongest of opponents, and little excitement in the looting phase after battle. This update aims to address this.



The strongest opponents now have a small chance to both use and drop as loot named weapons and shields that offer some advantages over their nameless counterparts and come with looks of their own. Their stats are slightly randomized to excel in different areas and some of them are plain better than others. To be clear, named items are not the legendary items we plan on adding eventually - they’re just very well crafted weapons and shields and should make looting in the game a bit more interesting for now, as well as allow you to customize your brothers better with their unique look.

Looking for a Sound Designer!
Going forward we’re looking for a dedicated hobbyist or professional sound designer to join us in making the game come alive. Your responsibilities would include designing the sound effects for various fantasy creatures, general battle sounds, footsteps, ambient noise and user interface sounds. If you’re a fan of Battle Brothers and would love to work on the game yourself, read our full job posting and apply at contact@overhypestudios.com!

What’s next?
Next up is the biggest update to date - the one introducing Goblins and changing quite a few mechanics around. Getting all this done will take us several weeks, so there will not be an update to the game for a while. However, we will keep you posted on our progress and will give you some sneak peeks into the coming green menace along the way.

Unfortunately the Goblin update will break save game compatibility - you will have to start a new campaign.

Changelog
Added named weapons and shields with slightly randomized stats as rare loot for the more powerful opponents.
Added 4 new events.

Changed Rally the Troops skill so that a single character can only be rallied once per round. A single character being rallied multiple times, especially in combination with Perfect Focus, proved to be way too powerful in dealing with almost any threat, which was not how it was intended.
Changed fatigue costs of Perfect Focus skill to 30 (down from 40).
Changed Ghouls to make use of the retreat mechanics as well.
Changed prices of some supplies to be higher.
Changed movement speed on mountainous terrain to be slightly higher.
Changed the waiting action to reduce initiative by 25% for the purpose of determining turn order the following turn. This is to lessen the problem of taking double-turns, i.e. two turns in quick succession.
Changed the Shield Bash perk to have the Knock Back skill cost 10 Fatigue less to use in order to make it more of a viable choice until it gets either reworked or replaced.
Changed Javelins so that they can be thrown twice per turn and cost less fatigue to use, also reduced their damage and effectiveness against armor with each throw.

Fixed retreating enemies crashing the game in some instances.
Fixed orcs potentially charging to tiles they shouldn't be able to reach.

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Elfeater

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Re: Battle Brothers - a turn based strategy RPG mix
« Reply #413 on: July 10, 2015, 04:32:46 pm »

How rare exactly are these named weapons? Do you need to start a new game to find them?
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Blitzkrieg

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Re: Battle Brothers - a turn based strategy RPG mix
« Reply #414 on: July 11, 2015, 04:21:54 pm »

Checked out this game. Very promising and right down my TBS alley. A few early impressions, both good and bad. I am aware that this game is a product of a small studio and still in early development. So I am going to try to avoid addressing the standard issues that inevitably emerge in that context, like how there is so far a small roster of enemies to fight or that there are basically only three types of tactical maps (plains, forest, and marsh?). I am also going to suggest several possible solutions to the "bad" stuff I've found so far.

The good:

*Superb tactical combat: This is easily the best part of the game. Tactical combat is simple without being simplistic and colorful without being silly. The hex-based grid (which unfortunately cannot be seen or toggled on as an option) is superior to the square alternative, and the tactical combat system elegantly incorporates every relevant factor, such as terrain, weapon type, and even stuff like morale and fatigue. The only thing I can think of that is missing is weather effects, and I don't know whether this will remain so, nor is it essential in a TBS.

*Robust character "customization" and progression: Even though this is a TBS, not an RPG, game, each individual soldier among the 12 in your party can be customized to your heart's content to look and function differently starting from their "backgrounds," starting traits, the "perk" tree, and level-up stat allotments, equipment choices. And backgrounds, traits, perks, stats, equipment are amazingly well balanced for an early access game, save a few ugly exceptions (like swordmasters being glaringly inferior to alternative backgrounds, perfect focus being too overpowered relative to alternative apex perks, etc.)

*Realism: For the most part, I like the decision to hew closer to the gothic, "low fantasy" medieval setting, with a few supernatural elements thrown in. It's a good compromise between the traditional "high fantasy" setting and the historical setting featured in games like Total War. I also love other injections of realism such as perma death and consumable limits.

*Characterful art style: This is an aesthetic opinion, so I won't bother to justify or elaborate it. But within the understandable limits of a small studio budget, the art style at the "micro" level (characters, equipment, etc, as opposed to "macro" level of things like strategic map features) is vivid and gripping.

The bad:

*No incentive to utilize the quest system at all: I see this as the biggest issue with the current game. I understand that there may be more types of quests that may be added, and that the quests are not balanced currently in terms of rewards. Still, am flummoxed over the basic design of these quests, as there is very little incentive to do them. Let me explain. There are currently three basic quest types, and none of them really work. First, there are the "delivery" quests that ask you to act as a courier from one town to another. I don't think any player actually does these, because the monetary reward doesn't even cover the cost of the supplies consumed during thr trip. Second, there are "escort" caravan costs. These are incredibly tedious, time-consuming, and also do not cover your expenses for larger parties. So again, there is no motive to do them. Finally, there are the "raze" quests that ask you to destroy enemy headquarters. These quests are at least productive in the short-term, because the monetary rewards are in fact large enough to cover your expenses several times over. Still, these are not slam dunk choices. The problem is that enemy headquarters are needed to spawn enemy units, and killing enemy units and selling off the gear you obtain from them is the only way to sustain your economy over the long-term. So while doing these raze quests worth it in the short-term, they may not be in the long-term, because doing so kills the proverbial chicken that lays the egg.

So what to do? My ideal solution is the most obvious and the simplest: Increase the monetary reward for all quests, especially the delivery and escort quests. As of now, the quest system is simply not utilized at all, except the raze quests, and even that is optimally only utilized as a last resort option where you need a quick, large cash infusion. The escort quests can also perhaps be sped up to lessen the ennui.

*Lack of character customization at game start: Although the game does offer a lot of character customization, I feel more is needed for at least the "founding" brothers. In an RPG game, or a game with a lot of RPG elements, people want to identify with the "original" character or characters and have full control over them.

So a more elaborate system for the founding brothers may be looked into, rather than one that assigns them randomly. Perhaps we can choose the backgrounds, traits, and stats for point cost. For instance, a "positive" trait would cost more points, but a "negative" trait would actually refund points. And so on.

*The questionable:

*I put some things under the "questionable" umbrella, because I am not sure whether these issues are due to the game being in early access, or products of dev design. But the game at the moment has some usability issues like the combat log being fairly threadbare, the lack of an autoresolve option, and the tactical map missing some toggle features that make the tactical situation more transparent. None of these things are game-breaking or urgent, but resolving them would save a lot of player frustration.





« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 04:27:10 pm by Blitzkrieg »
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Jaysen

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Re: Battle Brothers - a turn based strategy RPG mix
« Reply #415 on: July 12, 2015, 05:35:47 am »

How rare exactly are these named weapons? Do you need to start a new game to find them?

No, you do not need to do a fresh start. They are pretty rare though and usually just some of most powerful enemies carry them like a bandit leader for example.
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a1s

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Re: Battle Brothers - a turn based strategy RPG mix
« Reply #416 on: July 12, 2015, 09:04:33 pm »

*No incentive to utilize the quest system at all: I see this as the biggest issue with the current game. I understand that there may be more types of quests that may be added, and that the quests are not balanced currently in terms of rewards. Still, am flummoxed over the basic design of these quests, as there is very little incentive to do them. Let me explain. There are currently three basic quest types, and none of them really work. First, there are the "delivery" quests that ask you to act as a courier from one town to another. I don't think any player actually does these, because the monetary reward doesn't even cover the cost of the supplies consumed during thr trip. Second, there are "escort" caravan costs. These are incredibly tedious, time-consuming, and also do not cover your expenses for larger parties. So again, there is no motive to do them. Finally, there are the "raze" quests that ask you to destroy enemy headquarters. These quests are at least productive in the short-term, because the monetary rewards are in fact large enough to cover your expenses several times over. Still, these are not slam dunk choices. The problem is that enemy headquarters are needed to spawn enemy units, and killing enemy units and selling off the gear you obtain from them is the only way to sustain your economy over the long-term. So while doing these raze quests worth it in the short-term, they may not be in the long-term, because doing so kills the proverbial chicken that lays the egg.
Delivery (and to some extent caravan) quests are intended for starting parties, in which case they do cover the cost of supplies (your starting party costs less than 20 gold/day, and food works out to less than a GP/day/unit anyway.) In fact you get ~100-150 gold net profit for 0 fighting. As a strong party, you can use them as directions for your patrols, in this case you don't so much hurry to the destination (like the noob party) as leisurely hunt enemies in the direction of your target city, until you reach it an get some free gold. Caravan quests are also nice for early game parties in that you can get the caravan guards to fight your battles, but still get all the loot (I think.)
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dennislp3

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Re: Battle Brothers - a turn based strategy RPG mix
« Reply #417 on: July 12, 2015, 09:10:35 pm »

Exactly...late game you are expected to be fighting and killing things...an elite mercenary group shouldn't be doing delivery quests generally
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Elfeater

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Re: Battle Brothers - a turn based strategy RPG mix
« Reply #418 on: July 13, 2015, 01:28:46 am »

Exactly...late game you are expected to be fighting and killing things...an elite mercenary group shouldn't be doing delivery quests generally
If you read the fluff, many of them are escort missions.
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Retropunch

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Re: Battle Brothers - a turn based strategy RPG mix
« Reply #419 on: July 13, 2015, 05:38:40 am »

I'm replying to an old post here, but as far as the dev post on retreating enemies is concerned I just wanted to add my thoughts.

Retreating enemies in games always has been a bit of an annoyance for me - you either need to hunt them down if you want to get their loot/make sure they're dead (which can be difficult to do) or you just leave them to run off and have to wait whilst they do that. There's never really a benefit in either, and sometimes it can be incredibly annoying if this ends up on you missing good loot (i'm looking at you Heroes of Might and Magic!) so it's overall never that great.

I'd therefore suggest some sort of reward if the enemy retreats. Maybe you capture some as slaves which can then be sold or perhaps you might find better loot being that they've ran away and left their good stuff around instead of using it. I'm really unsure what to suggest, but there needs to be a proper upside to the enemy retreating in my opinion.
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