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Author Topic: Beginner's Mafia XLV: The Terminators: Game Over! Town win!  (Read 78769 times)

TheDarkStar

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XLV: The Terminators: Day 1!
« Reply #165 on: March 04, 2014, 07:39:31 pm »

Oops, I forgot to read my post and I addressed Tiruin twice. Oh well.
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mastahcheese

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XLV: The Terminators: Day 1! 1 Replacement Needed
« Reply #166 on: March 04, 2014, 07:42:34 pm »

mastahcheese: Can you sum up your arguments against Grak? It's really annoying to go through every bit of text that you and Grak write.
Persus asked the same question, here is my reply to it.

[1] Mastahcheese, can you briefly summarize your case on Graknorke, [2] and whether or not you think he should be the day 1 lynch today, and [3] why you seem to think that no one else's posts are worthy of your attention?
[1] My case on Graknorke is, basically, that he's been asking questions that would provide a larger benefit to scum than town, he's been failing to answer my questions, under the guise of giving what amounts to non-answers. He has adopted a rather aggressive tone from my questioning. And overall he seems to be more interested in downgrading other's attempts at scumhunting, or deflecting the question, rather than try to defend himself in a logical manner. As well as repeatedly adding statements that serve no purpose other than to cause doubt and speculation.
[2] Yes, I think he should, he seems to be trying to cause confusion and doubt, which will only get worse the longer the days go on.
[3] I don't think they are unworthy of attention, I've just failed to see where I could really contribute to those discussions. Did I miss a question aimed at me? But I have been reading them.
It's still basically the same stuff, but I'm starting to actually get some answers out of him that actually provide information.
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4maskwolf

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XLV: The Terminators: Day 1!
« Reply #167 on: March 04, 2014, 08:03:06 pm »

Can I get everyone's reads?

Granorke: Fairly townie, pretty solid play
DP109: Get in here
EHF: Erm... seems to have some sort of thing against the ICs, otherwise, not a good read on him, he just joined.
LARD: Also has something against the ICs, apparently.  Slight scum due to pursuing a weak case, but I have to say I appreciate the cleverness of the trap he tried.
The Cheese Meister: Is actually performing a Toony Tunnel right now, though not on such a large scale.  Neutral read.
4maskwolf: ME!
TDS: I'm not entirely sure, to be honest.  Neutral read unless I see something.
And saving the best (read:ICs) for last:
Tiruin: Asks a lot of questions, but mostly in response to posts by others.  Neutral read.
Persus: Neutral read, answered my questions calmly, did not panic.  I don't see anything wrong with his posts, but nothing that screams "townie" either.

Epichighfive321

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XLV: The Terminators: Day 1!
« Reply #168 on: March 04, 2014, 08:12:56 pm »

If I were scum, I would play to win. However I would not do that by giving bad advice. Everything I say in italics you can trust. What I say outside of italics is up for you to decide.
While this doesn't directly count as evidence it is just confirming the point I made previously,
I know, I read the OP. But I think you are using that to win. If I was IC I could win the game easier by letting the players think I'm pointing in the right direction but really I'm not. And that wouldn't be not doing your job because we would learn from that. I think I have already.
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Epichighfive321

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XLV: The Terminators: Day 1!
« Reply #169 on: March 04, 2014, 08:15:36 pm »

Sorry, I clicked post instead of preview, What I meant to say before posting was that based on that and a possible hunch, I'm sticking with my vote.
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4maskwolf

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XLV: The Terminators: Day 1!
« Reply #170 on: March 04, 2014, 08:16:55 pm »

Sorry, I clicked post instead of preview, What I meant to say before posting was that based on that and a possible hunch, I'm sticking with my vote.
And what is this hunch?

Also, reads, please.

Graknorke

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XLV: The Terminators: Day 1! 1 Replacement Needed
« Reply #171 on: March 04, 2014, 08:30:51 pm »

[1] You make a valid point, by deliberately ignoring the actual statement and instead only focusing on the last part. So you still want to claim that what you said was in reference to town? Because I just disproved you with that quote, and you never even challenged it. I just proved you lied. My question was entirely about scum, and you just said that your response pertained to town.
[2] This huge portion can easily be summarized into "I'm town and you'll just have to believe me." Which holds no sway in any case at all. And then just a but further into it you begin to outright insult me.
[Bold] Are you intentionally enticing me to attack you? You've been passive-aggressive for a good while now, as I pointed out earlier, and you keep going further and further into it.
[3] Well, scum usually go about by killing townies in the night, and trying to get town to mislynch during the day, so I'd say that's your overarching plan. The individual details could all vary from person to person, so it's not exactly like I can read your mind. So I'll ask the question back to you. What is your game plan?
[4] I find it ironic that you post this right before your definition of a "leading question", in that it is basically already assuming my response, which, as you say, a leading question would imply.
[1]If you agree that I made a good point, then you also agree that you didn't "disprove" anything. My post stands as pertaining to town if we don't discredit your argument that it looking like town is a scum ploy.
[2]It's not so much "you have to believe me" as it is "This all there is". You're not going to get a drastic change in what my answers are just by asking over and over. Maybe slight differences in wording like earlier, but nothing like spontaneously confessing to be scum because you keep asking me about the phrase "slip up".
[bold]I didn't think I need to entice you to attack me. And passive-aggressive isn't unusual for me, if you want me to keep it in check I can try, but I thought you'd prefer as little revision as possible in posts.
[3]That's a little vague, considering how much you were acting like you thought was scummy, but I'll bite. I was hoping for someone to be more obviously scummy on day 1, or at least more receptive to discussion and active. As it is, people have mostly just exchanged pleasantries and then sat back complacent. I thought I was at least onto something with LARD, but I'm not sure where I can go with it now. Then there's 4mask who has been poking at various people enough that I think he's town, TDS who hasn't made a vote yet, you who I think has taken actions that it wouldn't make sense for scum to take (going after me when it would be easy to let LARD or darkpaladin get lynched), and darkpaladin and Solymr who I don't think have been posting enough, which annoys me. So I feel at a bit of a dead end.
[4]A leading question assumes a certain answer as part of the question. What I posted was just an admittedly useless and inflammatory comment.
[1] Um, no, that is a blatant jump to a conclusion, as well as completely misinterpreting the context. You are once again attempt to skew the topic by only acknowledging one part of a multi-part subject.
[2] I've already begun getting some acceptable answers out of you. And no, a spontaneous confession will never happen, because it would serve no purpose at all. Is that what you think I've been trying to get out of you?
[bold] In no situation would I ever tell someone to edit a post. That's a blatant rule violation.
[3] Alright, this sparks some new questions out of me. Who do you think is acting the most "complacent"? By "obviously scummy", is there anything in particular you were looking for when reading people's posts? If you were to back to getting on LARD, where would you begin? You specifically mention that TDS hasn't voted yet, what does this tell you?
[4] If it was useless, then what were you hoping would be achieved by including it?
[1]I notice now that I put a negative in there that shouldn't be, but you probably noticed that. Otherwise, what I said makes sense to me. Your original argument was along the lines of: "You said you had "slipped up" earlier, and this is a phrase used in Mafia to refer to showing scumtells. You claim that you said it in a more general definition referring to mistakes and that it could also apply to town, however I do not think that is the case. When you said 'without the added pressure of being scum', *that could have been a scum move to make you appear town*."
I then said that sort of reasoning (between the asterisks) encourages WIFOM and isn't helpful, and you agreed. So I don't see how you can still say you've proved that I wasn't referring to mistakes as a townie?
[2]No, it was hyperbole. But the level of insistence on me further explaining makes it seem like you want more than a simple explanation. But of course this is going to be influenced by the fact that I wrote what you're asking about in the first place and of course I know what I meant.
[3]Complacent - Torn between 4mask and TDS. Both ask questions, but oftentimes they hold back on more incriminating questions to instead go for someone else. For example, in TDS' most recent post, he's written much worse about me than about LARD, yet is FoSing LARD. It's as if rather than pursuing what looks scummiest, he already thinks he's found the scum, despite an earlier post saying that LARD doesn't look scummy (where he did an unvote, so I suppose he must have voted once). If I were to make an accusation on this, it'd be that he was picking easy targets, but I haven't actually asked about that.
Then 4mask is being mostly reactionary. He recently complained that nobody was asking him questions, despite there being plenty of places in the conversations where he could interject and share what he thinks. He also has a vote down so it seems like he also is unwaveringly sure that he's found scum.
To get back on LARD I'd probably start with inquiring about his current vote. Were he scum, he would know that he was voting for a townie so I suspect that the reasoning would not be as watertight as actual suspicion.
[4]I was sort of thinking abut that 'trap' LARD made early on in the game, with 4mask fell for. But the context I tried to use it in was way out, as was the way in which I did it. Doing something like that didn't even make sense in the context.

[bold]I didn't mean editing the post, but checking over what I've written before I post it. Trimming anything superfluous, keeping the tone at a reasonable level, that sort of thing. I'm just not entirely sure whether that's a good or a bad thing.


Graknorke: You are currently arguing with mastahcheese.

You seem to be sidestepping a question ("What's your read on Persus13" or something like that). What makes you think that no one will care about this? Obviously, at least mastahcheese cares. If you keep refusing to answer, more people will start caring about your answer.

You say you will be convincing, and yet you also say that you can't be convincing. If you're town, play like town. Go scumhunt and get information for all of us. Also, your most recent post was somewhat lacking in anything substantial; you respond to mastahcheese's questions with things like "You looked at the wrong thing" or "It doesn't matter". Why is this?
The issue was not me continually sidestepping the question, but the fact that I avoided answering it in the first place.

I said that I can't prove anything, not that I can't be convincing.
I don't and didn't respond to all of his questions like you put them. That was for a short rally around one issue which I kept presenting in a way that didn't lend itself to being read how I meant it. But that's fixed now.


4mask could you please explain your suspicions on Persus13? Just a quick overall view.
LARD do you still hold your vote to be valid and why? Same as above, try to keep it concise.

READS:
    Epichighfice321 - Weirdly paranoid, not explaining self well, I do suspect incompetence, by still a slight scum lean.
    Graknorke - Cool dude who is amazing
    mastahcheese - As I've mentioned before, gone way out of the way of an easy lynch to go after me. Leaning town.
    4maskwolf - Pretty reactionary, not taking a lot of initiative, but I suppose this call for reads is something
    LARD - Still not entirely convinced, but I don't think his behaviour is as suspicious as I did before. Would still like to know more
    darkpaladin109 - NOT POSTING. Frustrating me to no end.
    TheDarkStar - Going for an easy lynch to attack rather than me, who he seems to find more suspicious. Scum lean.
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Tiruin

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XLV: The Terminators: Day 1!
« Reply #172 on: March 04, 2014, 08:39:01 pm »

Quickpost/PFP

EHF
If I were scum, I would play to win. However I would not do that by giving bad advice. Everything I say in italics you can trust. What I say outside of italics is up for you to decide.
While this doesn't directly count as evidence it is just confirming the point I made previously,
I know, I read the OP. But I think you are using that to win. If I was IC I could win the game easier by letting the players think I'm pointing in the right direction but really I'm not. And that wouldn't be not doing your job because we would learn from that. I think I have already.
Sorry, I clicked post instead of preview, What I meant to say before posting was that based on that and a possible hunch, I'm sticking with my vote.
...So? You don't exactly state what gave you that idea. You pull out of an assumption and believe it is justified for your vote to stick?

You haven't even explained your poke at LARD. Seems more like an easy-lynch note there.
Oh! And do note, I'm being aggressive--what do you make of that?
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TheDarkStar

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XLV: The Terminators: Day 1!
« Reply #173 on: March 04, 2014, 08:46:43 pm »

Can I get everyone's reads?

Here:

Granorke: He's been responding well to scumhunting. Town lean.
DP109: Lurking, so slight scum lean for this.
EHF: Baseless accusations. Scum lean, especially when combined with Solymr's actions.
LARD: Slight scum lean for some odd play, but this might be because he is new.
Mastahcheese: Doing lots of scumhunting on Grak specifically. He tends to explain why he does things, so town lean.
4maskwolf: Null read; I haven't seen much of what he has done recently.
TDS: Me. Town for sure, so never ever vote for me  :P.
Tiruin: Says very little. Null read
Persus13: Has said stuff, but mostly IC stuff. Null read.

PPE: Grak: I unvoted LARD because 1. He's not here to answer any questions and 2. he answered the inquiries about his playstyle. Also, there are other, more suspicious people.
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4maskwolf

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XLV: The Terminators: Day 1!
« Reply #174 on: March 04, 2014, 08:49:21 pm »

Certainly.  Persus is an experienced player.  Nothing he has done so far is suspicious, my vote on him was a pressure vote to turn up the heat a little.  He answered reasonably, there was nothing I could find fault with.  He doesn't take much initiative, however, thus the neutral read.
I only give D1 towny reads to those who I am fairly certain are town.

I don't have a vote down.  I unvoted Persus.

If you want me to not be "complacent", then please feel free to ask me a question.  However, I'm overloaded with work and constantly tired and other life stuff, so don't expect me to ramp up my play until the weekends, probably.

My apologies to everyone for not playing up to the level I would like to...

PPE: oh fine, I'll try to scumhunt.

TDS: If you think EHF is scum, vote him.  Why are you holding your vote back?  Are you afraid that if he is town and lynched, you will be seen as scum?  Because only scum are afraid of that.

Tiruin

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XLV: The Terminators: Day 1!
« Reply #175 on: March 04, 2014, 08:53:33 pm »

Tiruin: Says very little. Null read
Very little is quite an understatement. Please back it up?

PPE: oh fine, I'll try to scumhunt.
In any game, while this is your intent-don't do it this way! xD The wording screams epic error. Or lazy.
Quote
However, I'm overloaded with work and constantly tired and other life stuff, so don't expect me to ramp up my play until the weekends, probably.
But this! This deserves....*hugs* Hope you're ok. :/
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Epichighfive321

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XLV: The Terminators: Day 1!
« Reply #176 on: March 04, 2014, 08:57:44 pm »

quote author=4maskwolf link=topic=136649.msg5059763#msg5059763 date=1393982215]
Sorry, I clicked post instead of preview, What I meant to say before posting was that based on that and a possible hunch, I'm sticking with my vote.
And what is this hunch?

Also, reads, please.
[/quote]
This would be the hunch in a nutshell, no one is looking to him on the basis of his IC status.
I know, I read the OP. But I think you are using that to win. If I was IC I could win the game easier by letting the players think I'm pointing in the right direction but really I'm not. And that wouldn't be not doing your job because we would learn from that. I think I have already.
[

Alright I guess here are my reads

EpicHighFive321 - Me
Graknorke - No reason at all to believe scum
Mastahcheese - Fairly neutral, if anything I agree with Graknorke and he is leaning townie
4maskwolf - Seems to be inquiring for quite a bit of information, I guess I would lean neutral or town
LARD - Mostly neutral but I'm not quite sure
Darkpaladin - Not posting enough to read
The Dark Star - Mostly neutral read, nothing much that I could tell
Tiruin - Despite voting for me I'm gonna say he's a stand up guy, neutral lean, I think aggressiveness means he thinks I'm scum, It's not hard to tell.
Persus - I don't think he is giving false tips or helping us falsely, but I do think he seems to give off a scum vibe, with his position as IC I don't think anyone would look to him.
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Tiruin

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XLV: The Terminators: Day 1!
« Reply #177 on: March 04, 2014, 09:06:26 pm »

Tiruin - Despite voting for me I'm gonna say he's a stand up guy, neutral lean, I think aggressiveness means he thinks I'm scum, It's not hard to tell.
*She. :P

Graknorke - No reason at all to believe scum
Mastahcheese - Fairly neutral, if anything I agree with Graknorke and he is leaning townie
Despite their dueling you see no difference in either?
...I didn't check behind that much-though will do later due to busy-ness.


Persus - I don't think he is giving false tips or helping us falsely, but I do think he seems to give off a scum vibe, with his position as IC I don't think anyone would look to him.
Isn't this against what you said earlier? That, and implied, he would teach by being dastardly scum?
If a vibe-what set it off? Brevity?
His position as an IC has no difference from your position as a player--it is a term people like alluding to because we are known to be experienced, yet we still learn from you as you learn from us.
I fail to see the mystique of the IC.
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4maskwolf

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XLV: The Terminators: Day 1!
« Reply #178 on: March 04, 2014, 09:18:37 pm »

quote author=4maskwolf link=topic=136649.msg5059763#msg5059763 date=1393982215]
Sorry, I clicked post instead of preview, What I meant to say before posting was that based on that and a possible hunch, I'm sticking with my vote.
And what is this hunch?

Also, reads, please.
This would be the hunch in a nutshell, no one is looking to him on the basis of his IC status.
I know, I read the OP. But I think you are using that to win. If I was IC I could win the game easier by letting the players think I'm pointing in the right direction but really I'm not. And that wouldn't be not doing your job because we would learn from that. I think I have already.
[

Alright I guess here are my reads

EpicHighFive321 - Me
Graknorke - No reason at all to believe scum
Mastahcheese - Fairly neutral, if anything I agree with Graknorke and he is leaning townie
4maskwolf - Seems to be inquiring for quite a bit of information, I guess I would lean neutral or town
LARD - Mostly neutral but I'm not quite sure
Darkpaladin - Not posting enough to read
The Dark Star - Mostly neutral read, nothing much that I could tell
Tiruin - Despite voting for me I'm gonna say he's a stand up guy, neutral lean, I think aggressiveness means he thinks I'm scum, It's not hard to tell.
Persus - I don't think he is giving false tips or helping us falsely, but I do think he seems to give off a scum vibe, with his position as IC I don't think anyone would look to him.
[/quote]
Ratchets into attack mode:
Alright bud, here's the deal.  Your hunch is entirely based on the premise that somehow the ICs are above us in status.  They are not.  The only special privilege they have is that they can post after death.  The entire premise of the ICs is that they are here to help.  That does not mean that we are blind to their mistakes: believe me, if any of them make one wrong move, I will metaphorically tear them to shreds.
In case you missed it, I DID go after Persus.  If you want to link or quote some of the places where he seems scummy, feel free, but please provide evidence.
Another point: people here seem to be both over and underestimating the amount I post.  You, in this case, overestimate it.  My post count is likely somewhere between Tiruin and TDS: not low, but not high either.  Something tells me that you haven't read the previous pages as closely as you should have and are making accusations based on things others already said.  Even your attack on Persus was first proposed by LARD, I believe.  While not necessarily scumtell, that does put you down in a level of lazy only previously acquired by Org and myself.
Make a strong case or get lynched for it, bud.  That's how a lot of these games play out.

Epichighfive321

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XLV: The Terminators: Day 1!
« Reply #179 on: March 04, 2014, 09:24:05 pm »

Tiruin - Despite voting for me I'm gonna say he's a stand up guy, neutral lean, I think aggressiveness means he thinks I'm scum, It's not hard to tell.
*She. :P

Graknorke - No reason at all to believe scum
Mastahcheese - Fairly neutral, if anything I agree with Graknorke and he is leaning townie
Despite their dueling you see no difference in either?
...I didn't check behind that much-though will do later due to busy-ness.


Persus - I don't think he is giving false tips or helping us falsely, but I do think he seems to give off a scum vibe, with his position as IC I don't think anyone would look to him.
Isn't this against what you said earlier? That, and implied, he would teach by being dastardly scum?
If a vibe-what set it off? Brevity?
His position as an IC has no difference from your position as a player--it is a term people like alluding to because we are known to be experienced, yet we still learn from you as you learn from us.
I fail to see the mystique of the IC.
Sorry, I clearly was unable to tell your gender.
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