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Author Topic: Marriage Discussion Redirected  (Read 1169 times)

scriver

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Marriage Discussion Redirected
« on: February 20, 2014, 12:35:17 pm »

Posts for context:
 
Really, my major issue with the term 'homophobia' is that it is a misnomer in countless ways. Ignoring the total disregard for etymology and taking it as it is meant to be taken, it still accuses anti-gay people of fearing homosexuals. While this may be true in some cases, by and large it is the equivalent of calling abortionists 'babyphobics'. If it is meant to indicate hate, that still is largely incorrect. I, personally, think of homosexuality as 'wrong' for a number of reasons which I shall not detail in the interest of keeping this thread as non-political as possible, but I neither hate homosexuals, shun them, or presume to tell other people how to live their life. Now, 'gay marriage', an oxymoron in and of itself, is a different issue altogether, but again, not going into it right now.

The questions in the study seemed to have an overly-broad definition of 'homophobic', which is my major issue with it.

How is gay marriage an oxy-moron?


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My own thoughts: Marriage has always been about inheritance. It's choosing where your assets go when you die - either to your children if you have any, or to your spouse if you don't. Marriage has been between man and woman to decide which children are heirs and which are bastards (in Swedish, it's literally "real" and "unreal" children, and your spouse is also called your "real husband/wife"). Marriage between men in history is not unheard of, though, for example, both early Christian sects and the pirate societies of the Golden Age of Piracy practiced it.

In the modern day and age, the need to control who inherits you isn't as great, and you have wills and laws and lawyers to do inheritance battles instead of warriors, and gene testing available to prove connections (if your country does not allow disinheritancion), so that aspect isn't as important any more. There are still a lot of privileges that only married people enjoy, though, and that's why it's important to make gay and straight marriages equal. Then it doesn't really matter what it's called.

By the way, I really had to fight my bad sense of humour to not name this thread "Keeping the Gay from the Happy". I found strength in that I couldn't come up with a way to make the pun better ;)
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kaijyuu

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Re: Marriage Discussion Redirected
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2014, 12:36:33 pm »

Reposting my two cents.

Would you be fine with "marriage" being stripped as a legal term and replaced with another word, tahujdt?

It seems you're arguing about definitions and semantics. That's easily bypassed if it's really a big deal. We could just make "civil unions" be the legal equivalent of what marriage is now (and be inclusive of gays), and no longer have marriage be a legal term whatsoever. Problem solved.
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MaximumZero

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Re: Marriage Discussion Redirected
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2014, 12:42:44 pm »

tahujdt: If that study was done by Mark Regnerus, it's been thoroughly debunked. That guy is both a dumbass and an extreme fundamentalist. You can find studies that will support any viewpoint on any subject, because people can't keep their damn biases to themselves.
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Descan

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Re: Marriage Discussion Redirected
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2014, 12:48:22 pm »

Most of the studies I've heard of had no statistical difference between same-sex and differing-sex parents and childhood outcomes. I even recall one that found lesbian parents had a better statically-speaking effect, though I don't recall the details of that particular tidbit, whether it was a study-of-studies, a survey or a controlled study or what.
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kaijyuu

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Re: Marriage Discussion Redirected
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2014, 12:51:31 pm »

Hey guys, I hear gay couples occasionally get divorced.

I knew their lifestyle promoted a contentious household!
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: Marriage Discussion Redirected
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2014, 12:52:08 pm »

I'm completely against marriage.
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kaijyuu

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Re: Marriage Discussion Redirected
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2014, 12:54:04 pm »

I'm completely against marriage.
It certainly ain't for everybody.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

MaximumZero

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Re: Marriage Discussion Redirected
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2014, 12:55:48 pm »

I'm completely against marriage.
It certainly ain't for everybody.
Tried it once, failed, going to try one more time.
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: Marriage Discussion Redirected
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2014, 01:23:58 pm »

I'm completely against marriage.
It certainly ain't for everybody.
Tried it once, failed, going to try one more time.
Hope it works out, it's sad to hear about relationships falling apart.
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freeformschooler

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Re: Marriage Discussion Redirected
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2014, 01:47:23 pm »

In the modern day and age, the need to control who inherits you isn't as great, and you have wills and laws and lawyers to do inheritance battles instead of warriors, and gene testing available to prove connections (if your country does not allow disinheritancion), so that aspect isn't as important any more. There are still a lot of privileges that only married people enjoy, though, and that's why it's important to make gay and straight marriages equal. Then it doesn't really matter what it's called.
I'm completely against marriage.

More from this angle: if the primary incentive to marriage is "benefits from marriage," and those are given by the government, what would be wrong with abolishing government-sanctioned marriage benefits in the first place? That way fundamentalist Christians could have untainted, gay-free marriage if they want and easily pass off gay dudes holding a ceremony as "not real." Separate the government benefits from the actual marriage, and any two consenting people could apply with no moral/religious undertones. Nowhere in the bible does it say, "marriage should be between one couple and one federal government."
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scriver

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Re: Marriage Discussion Redirected
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2014, 02:08:00 pm »

Providing benefits to family units is good for the country (and for the families), and marriage has traditionally been suggesting that you're going to at least try to stay together for a long time and/or raise children together. Making it possible to form whatever "family units" you want (be it families or flat-mates or commune-inhabitants) could be a possible way to go (if it's possible to do that without unwanted consequences or making it too easy to take advantage of), but making the legal status of "married" apply to gay marriage as well is a lot easier than overhauling what I imagine to be a whole mess of interconnected legal stuff.
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: Marriage Discussion Redirected
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2014, 02:35:20 pm »

I've noticed that government benefits to families are often reduced if there is some other means of support. The following applies to the only state I know this stuff about, Washington.

For example, if a woman is living alone and gets assistance with her rent, if she announces that she has a room-mate, the government will give her less for rent. They assume the room-mate will pay some. Similarly, welfare for single mothers typically has policies that encourage her to marry or locate the father to force him to pay child support - which results in a deduction from the welfare. The government wants people to support each other.

The state also likes to assign custody of the kids to the mother in the event of divorce. I suspect this may be because she's less likely to abandon them than the father due to a belief in a stronger maternal attachment than a paternal one (although whether this difference actually exists is debatable, I assume they operate under the misconception anyway).

A single mother has difficulty both working and raising the kids. She needs to pay for child care or else have abnormal work hours, both of which are straining to the budget. She also must support multiple people, and growing kids go through clothes and food very quickly. The other single parent, the father, likely has better earning potential and also fewer demands on his income.

So it makes sense that, if a family breaks up and the kids stay with the mother, the mother will need assistance. This typically takes the form of child support, but if the child support isn't forthcoming the state steps in to make sure these kids don't starve to death.

This ignores the issues of same-sex parents (who may be equally able to demand custody and have equal wage-earning potential) or nontraditional gender roles in opposite-sex parents (the woman is the breadwinner, male stays at home to raise the kids - upon divorce, if she gets the kids, he has much lower than expected earning power because he took the traditionally female role and did not develop his career skills useful outside the home. This may also be a problem with same-sex couples), and multi-parent households (if you have a woman and two men, and multiple-marriage isn't legal, will the state impose a common-law marriage? Which man will it determine is the husband? What if she has custody of two children, one from each man? What if neither man is the father of these children? Will the state split the child support responsibility between the two, creating a de jure three-parent relationship?).

Anyway, all this is just describing what I think is the modern rationale behind the government's attempts to get people to marry and stay married, and failing that to get the divorced parents to continue sharing resources: because it reduces the government's burden in supporting them.
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