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[vjmdhzgr]

So I have had plans for a while now to make a mod that's main purpose is to do science on how civilizations work. Like I once read that civs with opposing spheres would end up always at war with each other like goblins and dwarves, or what effects do the trophy ethics have on fortress mode, and what will happen if a civ has unthinkable for the kill enemy ethic. I haven't begun work on this yet because I wanted to see if anybody was interested in this or if it had been done before. My eventual hopes for the mod is to have like 30 unique entities most of which will only have a maximum of one appearance each, but I'm not sure if there's any big problems with this. I'm quite good at modding but already I can imagine what sorts of crazy problems this might cause (mainly it would be having too many caravans). So if anybody would like to help with this, either by doing some modding or just suggesting ideas I would appreciate it.

[Hugo_The_Dwarf]

Well I know strongly opposing ETHICS will cause wars (Say Goblins find TORTURE ACCEPTABLE but elves find it APPALLING, elves will wage war on goblins based on torture)
A civ made up of creatures that cannot speak will be at war/hostile status due to "not being able to make peace treaties" also two non speaking civs will hate each other for that very reason(I think, haven't done much research in that yet)
All babysnatching civs will be buddies with occasional wars if their ethics conflict (but if have same ethics will remain allies)
all Thief civs will be buddies (same as babysnatchers)
However thieves, babysnatchers, normal, and non speaking/utterances will all be against each other.

so in a way factions can be made
3 factions (Speaking non-babysnatching non theives, Speaking Baby Snatchers, Speaking Theives)
and unlimited? amount of free for all-ers

Trade can be removed if the civ has not PACK animals or WAGON_PULLERS (thus nothing to load merchandise on, no animals to hold, and no animals to pull a wagon)
Having no PROGRESS_TIGGERS or ACTIVE_SEASONs will prevent them from showing up in fortress mode
but if there is a ACTIVE_SEASON just one PROGRESS_TRIGGER above 0 (goes from 0-5) will allow them to show up at that trigger point

Things I want to try, and see if it works is:

Can a layer_linked civ be playable for embark (since layer_linked never actually have wars they won't die out in worldgen)
Can layer_linked civs trade (think this was answered before)
Does a civ that lives farther away from other civs live and prosper more?

those are my only suggestions for your great journey

[vjmdhzgr]

I'll just shorten this
those are my only suggestions for your great journey

I've done minor experiments with layer linked civs and i know that they can't be played as adventurers but i haven't tried fortress mode. Also something of great importance that no one else seems to know, one time I made a mod for a friend of mine that had a civ that can only appear once and I generated a world that went for like 1050 years and they got wiped out by some nearby elves around year 181. But I was still able to embark as them and I even got migrants and caravans. Anyway you can make a fourth faction, which would be an item thief and a baby snatcher civ, I've done it myself though for making playable civs you should not have item thief. Also I know that item thief and baby snatcher conflicts are not considered wars for worldgen and that civs that live in caves will be hidden to others. So as for what science I personally want done, i want to see test that thing I heard about opposing spheres causing civs to fight permanently and what exactly is taken into account for worldgen battles. Like if you make a civ of adamantine giants with perfect attributes and fire breath but slow learner, how well will they do in worldgen battles. Also I want to see how commonly civs with everything unthinkable and everything acceptable will go to war and what might happen with a civ that has kill enemy set to unthinkable.

Now, some more important stuff I would like for these civs to have (at least kind of) different creatures so I would like some general ideas for creatures though I already have a friend who has a lot of those so I can just use those for a bit.

EDIT: alright I'll start working on some of the things I suggested here soon though I've never actually used the DFFD before so I guess I should figure that out first I expect to be able to put something up at some point today, I guess I'll just make some boring civs of already existing creatures like giant cave spiders or giants. Which raises another question, can a creature be a part of a civilization and be a wild animal I know they can be a part of two entities but this is something I'll test.

[Hugo_The_Dwarf]

Once a creature is apart of a civ it stops being a wild animal, aka doesn't show up as a roaming beast.
So a copy of them would have to be made for a wild and civ version

[Roses]

Once a creature is apart of a civ it stops being a wild animal, aka doesn't show up as a roaming beast.
So a copy of them would have to be made for a wild and civ version

Really? So if my civ goes underground and tames a specific animal, I won't see any of those animals in the wild any more?

[Urist Da Vinci]

Once a creature is apart of a civ it stops being a wild animal, aka doesn't show up as a roaming beast.
So a copy of them would have to be made for a wild and civ version

Really? So if my civ goes underground and tames a specific animal, I won't see any of those animals in the wild any more?

If humans, elves, dwarves, goblins, kobolds, etc. were not listed with the [CREATURE:_____] tokens in the entity raws, you might encounter wild humans, elves, dwarves, goblins, kobolds, etc. But since there is a human civ, you won't encounter wild humans unless you made a copy of the HUMAN creature raw with a different id name ("_____").

Taming a wild creature won't make it stop appearing in the wild, as is shown in vanilla where you can still encounter certain cave creatures even though the goblins use them as mounts/pets.

[Roses]

Ah I see, I misunderstood. Thanks!

[vjmdhzgr]

Alright the last few days there were several problems stopping me from working on this but I'll start now I currently want to test some thing with making another dwarf entity with as opposing ethics as I can get and they would only have weapons that dwarves can't wield. Which brings up something a lot of this will require getting through at least to the second year, and I'm actually kind of bad (and bored of for a bit) Dwarf Fortress so if someone could help do that I would appreciate it. I tried to make an account on DFFD a while ago and it wouldn't send the confirmation email meaning that I now can't have a DFFD account with my email. So should I just use a different site or make a new email I would prefer a different site but it seems everyone uses DFFD and I don't know if that's important.

[Hugo_The_Dwarf]

People trust DFFD so that is why it's more preffered but you could use dropbox or some other upload site, just as long as it's widely popular so people don't think your links are like evil or some such

[vjmdhzgr]

Alright so I've done some experiments into civilization displays and on embark if you have multiple entities that use the same creature there will be multiple displays for them on the civ relations screen. However legends viewer does not recognize that and it doesn't seem to work for the civ that you're playing as(in this case dwarves) and as far as I can tell civs with opposing sphere alignments are not automatically at war but I would like to investigate more. The civs I added to test sphere alignment are water elementals and fire elementals which are pretty much just fire men but with a stone thought center in their upper body and the water elementals are(kind of) made out of water and the water shooting attack doesn't work so they're kind of just terrible but the fire elementals would be very dangerous so I added progress triggers to make them arrive at probably appropriate times. I will put a download link up if anybody wants it.

[vjmdhzgr]

I just thought of a good way to define what I want to make with this mod. I do of course want to do science on civilizations and how they work. But I also want to add a bunch of new civs that only appear once so to get a different experience in your interactions with other civs. For example maybe you embark somewhere and Humans and Goblins don't have access to you. So maybe your main attacker ends up being a bunch of big(90,000 they actually are being added right now) humanoids with four arms but no weapons or armor. And your favored trade partner ends up being a civilization of cats who are of course really bad at most things but for some reason are extremely good at metalworking(I haven't added these but they seem fun) so I think this mod will be most fun if you generate worlds with a lot of ocean so as to cause a lot of islands isolated from most civs but that still have like cat people and 4 legged monstrosities on them.

[Hugo_The_Dwarf]

You can make a single civ generate random civs with different species so location of your embark might have a harder or easier version of that civs force.

Now this doesn't make their culture any different, just civs will have Goblins or somewhere else it will be fire imps and somewhere else might be blizzard men. They will all be babysnatcher, all use the same equipment however if you embark closer to that civ that decided to be made from just Goblins you will be invaded by them only, same if it was a fire imp dark fortress it'd just me fire imps.

so if you added more [CREATURE:xxxx] to the [ENTITY:EVIL] you will make the chance that every embark will have a chance to be invaded by a different creature for that entity. Which in this case you could make different levels of goblins so players can pick "Do I want normal goblins, hard goblins, or demon goblins" since the ENTITY:EVIL will have CREATURE:GOBLIN and another GOBLIN_HARD and GOBLIN_VERY_HARD

now in world gen whenever a new EVIL civ is being made it will randomly pick one of the CREATUREs and add that in there, then same thing for the next time it has to place it, thus if there are 10 different EVIL civs you will have locations like the north might have easy goblins, south will have hard goblins and the west will have the demon hard goblins.

But remember you get invaded by one only, it's not going to go "oh lets send all 3" it just sends the one that you embarked with closest. If you really wanted all three to invade you at some point you need 3 seperate entities
ENTITY:EVIL CREATURE:GOBLIN
ENTITY:EVIL_HARD CREATURE:GOBLIN_HARD
ENTITY:EVIL_VERY_HARD CREATURE:GOBLIN_VERY_HARD

that will let you be invaded by all three if they have access to you.
however adding more CREATURE calls won't make trading civs any different since all it is doing is picking a random creature to hold that civs entity.

[vjmdhzgr]

Well that's definitely helpful information, but I don't know if it matters too much. Because what I was thinking is that, you can only get attacked by one civ at a time(at least I think so I cheated once to get multiple to attack me but I'm guessing that only works with cheating) and so the large amount of hostile entities wouldn't matter too much but that does sound like a good idea that I would like to use at least once. Anyway there hasn't been much science since the last post, but I think some entities with all acceptable or all unthinkable are next, and to help get the information I want I'll allow multiple in one world for now.
EDIT:Well I was going to do that but then I got bored trying to think of a good creature to find everything unthinkable or acceptable so instead I started trying to make goblins that would always be on fire as part of the weird goblin difficulty system and I've gotten them to be magma resistance but despite all of their tissues being permanently well above the ignite temperature for skin(and all of their tissues having an ignite temperature of 100) neither they, or the normal goblins I'm having them fight are catching fire and I can't think of what else I might need to so
EDIT2:Well they catch fire in magma now and are perfectly fine with being on fire, but I would think that given that the freezing temperature of water in urists is like 10,000 and there's running water on the map that it's well above 100 degrees urist just in the air but the goblins still won't catch fire normally.
EDIT3:Furthermore fire elemental fire blasts can set them on fire but it doesn't seem to always work and they sometimes get unlit. So I'm thinking I'll give them an interaction with a really long cooldown that's set to be used upon themselves and pretty much causes a burst of fire where they're standing. So they'll enter the map for the siege and will set themselves, and whatever's right next to them on fire.
EDIT4:It seems my dreams of flaming goblins is impossible. Becuase for some strange reason you can't use it on yourself so they immediately use it on any enemies or friendly things they come across. But then I try to make it be used on greetings so it's only used on friendly goblins but that doesn't work because you can't hit friendly creatures with projectiles and you can't hit yourself with projectiles. So my best hope is to leave them this interaction and hope that they spawn in on a flammable substance and set that on fire and it's enough to trigger themselves. So I've added them to the evil entity, once again if anybody wants a download link please ask for one and help me test this because I'm actually pretty bad at fortress mode.

[Hugo_The_Dwarf]

see it's not the tissues that need to set fire you need the materials so

[SELECT_MATERIAL:ALL]
[HEAT_DAM:NONE]
[MELTING_POINT:NONE]
[IGNITE_POINT:7000]

should have them burst into flames and not melt or burn up over time
Also make sure to select the blood and pus materials after and set them to be "normal" or you can just move the BLOOD and PUS related calls after the SELECT_MATERIAL:ALL

And I'm sure you can get attacked by many entities at once if they all share the same ACTIVE_SEASON try Fortress Defense, also making civs that can attack at the same time it's good to remember the factions idea so you can have say Goblins and Orcs are friendly however they hate Dark Elves, but all 3 hate you. So when they all invade say in summer the goblins and orcs will attack the dark elves.

[vjmdhzgr]

see it's not the tissues that need to set fire you need the materials so

[SELECT_MATERIAL:ALL]
[HEAT_DAM:NONE]
[MELTING_POINT:NONE]
[IGNITE_POINT:7000]

should have them burst into flames and not melt or burn up over time
Also make sure to select the blood and pus materials after and set them to be "normal" or you can just move the BLOOD and PUS related calls after the SELECT_MATERIAL:ALL

And I'm sure you can get attacked by many entities at once if they all share the same ACTIVE_SEASON try Fortress Defense, also making civs that can attack at the same time it's good to remember the factions idea so you can have say Goblins and Orcs are friendly however they hate Dark Elves, but all 3 hate you. So when they all invade say in summer the goblins and orcs will attack the dark elves.

What you're suggesting is what I did, and when they do get set on fire they stay on fire and don't get hurt. As for the second part I've done some experiments involving that before, so basically I ended up capturing a bunch of goblins and was wondering what I could do with them and I thought maybe I could make some artificial caverns and dump them there. So I did. But before they were done (100x100 though there was of course a lot of undug tiles) some elves attacked riding horses. Most of them were caught in cage traps and I really don't remember too much about it. But anyway After getting the goblins into the caverns I tried putting some of the horses in and found that they weren't fighting the goblins. So i put some elves in and they didn't fight with the goblins either. And eventually they started having children(all three groups) and would then most of the time immediately murder the children. Now an important thing is that by the time they were in the caverns they weren't called invaders in the others tab they were just called hostile, and i think this is related to why they would have children and stuff but i don't think it would have any effect on them fighting each other. I'll try summoning human, dwarf, elf, and goblin sieges in my normal fort once I finish the first half of the wall and see what happens.
EDIT:Well I'm an idiot. So I started inactively running my fortress once I initially posted this and that ran for at least an hour it's hard to figure out what time zone the forum is in. Anyway my fortress very early on got a glitch that caused it to eternally be considered under siege, so no caravans, migrants or enemy sieges ever come. And it's just now that I realized that that means I've already done enough to figure out that it doesn't matter whether they will fight each other because they'll never end up attacking at the same time.
EDIT2: I did the test anyway and they're definitely not fighting each other.