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[GlyphGryph]

I don't think whether a choice is meaningful has much to do with whether it's an RPG. Plenty of non-RPG games have meaningful choices. And good game will have meaningful choices.

But I think an RPG is derived from choices that effect your character, choices about how you are going to play your role.

Linear RPGs like Final Fantasy are definitely RPGs, even though the story is linear, because the choices you DO make, as simple as most of them are, are all about defining your character.

If two hallways lead to the same place, but one hallway has a dodging reactions challenge and the other has an underwater swimming challenge, picking one or the other is a meaningful choice, but I don't think it's a choice that is symbolic of an RPG.
If two hallways lead to a different place, but your character remains the same regardless of his choice, I don't think that is symbolic of an RPG either.
If two hallways have the same challenges and lead to the same place, but one gives you an a bonus to magic damage at the end and one a bonus to physical damage, THEN I think we're getting somewhere - even if they are otherwise identical, that you have made a conscious decision on how to change your character, I think you've got RPG elements.
If two hallways are the same and go to the same place except for who you bring with you, and later in the game your character remembers that and has an additional dialogue choice with that character, I think that's an RPG thing too.

Let's take your example:

Consider a game where there's a prison atop a mountain, run by religious zealots. You can try to sweet talk your way in, or disguise yourself as a zealot, or sneak in through the haunted caves, or just plain attack the place - which is very difficult. But that's a strategy choice. Why are you even going in there? Oh, right, you need to rescue Jimbob who knows where the Heart of the Mountain is hidden. A good RPG would include other ways to get that information, so you can decide that rescuing Jimbob is just not what you want to do.

I think, even if you have all of these options - if, in the end, there is no change to your actual character, if he's still the same when you've finished, I don't think this is an RPG. If there's only a change in the world, but no personal and conscious progression, I think you've certainly made a situation with interesting and meaningful choices with consequences, which is great, but you haven't made it any more rpg-life.

I should add, however, that it really only needs to change the character in the eyes of the player - it doesn't have to be mechanical. Bringing it back to Walking Dead, ultimately a lot of your decisions aren't really "meaningful" - you can't change the world, or what happens, to any great extent. The only thing you can change, and this, I think, matters, is who you are. Your role is strongly fixed, as is the story you are taking part in, but every choice you make influences who the person you are playing really is.

If you decide to crush a man's head or try to resuscitate him, it may not end up mattering insofar as it's impact on the world - but it's written into your character's history, now. You are now the sort of person that does one or the other. You come out a different person - even if the rest of the world stays the same, you have changed.

[Mr. Strange]

rant

This. And even more in Skyrim (vanilla). Role Playing Games are games where you play the role of someone else, and the game system should be designed not to just allow you to be whoever you want, but to allow you to play as such in a meaningfull way. There should be a difference between character A and character B that makes them interact with the world differently. Skyrim was famous for this mistake, you could play as orc warrior in heavy armor but it would be identical to playing as elf warrior in heavy armor. Playing as frail High Elf mage without armor or weapons? Harbinger of companions. Dumb brute Honorable orcish warrior who doesn't know single spell? Archmage of The College of Winterhold. Your choices didn't matter.
If anyone cares, I don't consider any TES game after Oblivion to be RPG, and even Oblivion was crappy one.

TL;DR: Choices should have consequences, for better or for worse. And the system should work to allow choices person you play as would naturally make to be possible.

[Sinistar]

snip

I think you and LeoLeonardoIII are actually saying the same thing - choices in RPG should be meaningful in a way they are meaningful to the character development.

TL;DR: Choices should have consequences, for better or for worse. And the system should work to allow choices person you play as would naturally make to be possible.

Exactly.

[BFEL]

TL;DR: Choices should have consequences, for better or for worse. And the system should work to allow choices person you play as would naturally make to be possible.

Which is why I _HATEHATE^HATE the recent trend that Bethesda has taken with "essential" NPCs.
IF I WANNA KILL THE DUKE OF SIDEQUESTIA I SHOULD DAMN WELL BE ABLE TO, REGARDLESS OF IF HE HAPPENS TO NEED HIS TROUSERS PUT ON HIM BY A COMPLETE STRANGER.
Actually that's a pretty damn good reason in itself to want him dead.

And y'know what? If some random sabre toothed platypus finds its way into his palace in the dead of night and kills him with no input from me while I'm trying to find his jammies, THAT ISN'T A PROBLEM, THAT IS A STORY. A *HILARIOUS* and completely amazing story that would be heralded for all time as the best story ever.
It might cause some weirdness with the plot further down the line, but if you care THAT much you should read a damn book or watch a movie, instead of playing an interactive medium.

[Max White]

But from a dev perspective, that story about the Duke who needs you to put his pants on him is also a story, and it is a story with a reasonable risk to reward structure, and difficulty curve, and dedicated assets, and all sorts of good stuff to provide a very rich experience. It is something they worked hard on and would like you to experience, and a lot of players would be annoyed if it turns out they missed ut on that by accident.
I agree that there is a place for a much more organic gametype than these linear stories using RPG elements to stitch them together, but that is exactly what some people like. You are entitled to not like a game that doesn't do things the way you like, but that doesn't make it wrong or bad. I don't think telling people to jump ship over to books or movies and just forget about games because the kind of aspects they like are different from what you like is the right way to go.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

Yes, in a true sandbox you will end up missing 90% of the content. I don't think that means you "miss" it as a player, but that you want to replay with a different strategy and choices and experience new parts of the game. I understand a dev wants to make a 10 hr game with exactly 10 hours of stuff to play with rather than a game you replay 10 times at 10 hrs each time. I don't know how many games advertise replay value on the back of the box, or if that would even resonate with the consumer.

Gryph: I agree. I meant all of my points to combine into one concept of what an RPG is. You could say, I think all of those things are requirements of an RPG. I really think choosing how your stats develop isn't what makes an RPG. It's a trapping of an RPG.

I also think that video games don't make the cut as an RPG very often, and not one video game has ever reached the roleplaying caliber of a tabletop D&D game with a bunch of friends and a decent DM. At some point you have to give a little on the requirements just so at least some video games qualify.

But every single FF game I've played has been a very linear Story Completion Game with non-maningful choices. That is, the outcome of the choice is opaque, the range of choices are extremely limited, and the impact on the game is extremely limited. It's "Will you give the girl a flower? Y/N" which leads to her later having a different shop selection. Or even worse, "Add her to your party? Y/N" and on "No" she starts an "Oh you're so silly! Add her to your party? Y/N" loop until you agree.

I'm not saying FF games aren't enjoyable. They are just not RPGs, they're Story Completion Games. Normal people don't care about fine distinctions, but as expert connoisseurs in the field of playing video games, we need better-defined terminology. Otherwise, how many games would be filed under "Action"?!

[BFEL]

But from a dev perspective,

Ok, lemme stop you right there.
I saw in an article on Skyrim that the reason they didn't put levitation into the game, wasn't the reason it wasn't in Oblivion (I.E. Shit gets weird when cells entered without loading screens) but was basically because "The dungeon developer didn't account for it, and he would feel bad if people didn't experience every single minute detail in said dungeon because they just flew around"

Which to me is just RIDICULOUS. The fact that it would hurt one of the devs' feelings shouldn't even ENTER your mind when making a game. Should we disable weapons because the NPC animator would feel bad that people keep chopping up the things he worked on? FUCK NO. The dev perspective is far less important then the perspective of people who ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME.

that story about the Duke who needs you to put his pants on him is also a story, and it is a story with a reasonable risk to reward structure, and difficulty curve, and dedicated assets, and all sorts of good stuff to provide a very rich experience.

I.E. it is LINEAR and has much less importance in a SANDBOX game.

It is something they worked hard on and would like you to experience, and a lot of players would be annoyed if it turns out they missed ut on that by accident.

Its called a save/load system. It was invented around the 80s. Get with the times parachute pants.

I agree that there is a place for a much more organic gametype than these linear stories using RPG elements to stitch them together, but that is exactly what some people like. You are entitled to not like a game that doesn't do things the way you like, but that doesn't make it wrong or bad.

True, but the games in question are pretty much all SANDBOX games. In SANDBOX games the organic gametype should be FAR more important then the linear stories using RPG elements to stitch them together. To get a decent organic gametype in Skyrim you have to MOD THE GAME, and even then it tends to break many things.

I don't think telling people to jump ship over to books or movies and just forget about games because the kind of aspects they like are different from what you like is the right way to go.

That was a joke, but still games should be expected to be non-linear by default. Its not just because of aspects of the thing its LITERALLY THE PREMISE.

[Max White]

No, designing a game in a way that players will experience all that it has to offer is not just dancing around a devs feelings. Pretty much the definition of game development is making choices to shape the experience of a player. You have to accept that it is their sandbox, not yours, you are just playing in it. They are going to do what ever it takes to make sure you have fun in there, but at the end of the day the very premise is that they set the rules.

The dungeon is there to be explored, every nook and cranny. The monsters are there to be beaten to death in what ever way you best see fit. You remove flying, because it impairs the first, but you don't remove weapons because it complements the second.


As for this argument that it is a sandbox game and therefor non-linear, but it is linear therefor bad, the solution is simple! Stop thinking of it as a sandbox game! If in your mind all linearity is intrinsically negative to sandboxes, then the elder scrolls games aren't sandbox games. If you want to tell me all swans are white, when I find a black swan don't try and tell me I'm blind.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

I think the levitation should be in there because it's a legit use of magic in the game world. If you can blast someone with cold or whatever, why not lift yourself up a few feet? Go over dat wall, whatever. Like in D&D, it's the dev's job to come up with cool challenges that you still have to deal with despite being able to fly.

At the start of a D&D game you have to worry about encumbrance, food and water, shelter, travel. As you gain levels you gain access to magic like Bags of Holding, Create Food and Water, pop-up huts, and flying carpets - even teleportation! These herald your ascendance from a lowbie dirt-scrounger to a high-level adventurer who has other things to worry about. The adventures you go on at 15th level are not just 15 times as hard as the ones you did at 1st level - the environments and expectations are so great that a group of 300 1st level characters wouldn't be able to overcome them! Not worrying about your trail rations and how many pounds of gold you have is part of your reward for achieving high level.

So, I say if the game would conceivably include levitation, flying, teleportation, charmed NPCs, digging magic, etc. then the referee/content creator needs to invent cool new challenges that those abilities don't invalidate.

These are smart, skilled people. You don't make Skyrim with a bunch of dumbasses. They just had deadlines and development requirements and they did the best they could within those restrictions.

[Mr. Strange]

The dungeon is there to be explored, every nook and cranny. The monsters are there to be beaten to death in what ever way you best see fit.

Notice the difference? You have to explore the whole dungeon, in the way that dev decided, but you can choose from several different ways to deal with opponents? Why not have several ways to deal with dungeon as well? Even if I haven't played any D&D I think this kind of thing is called railroading and it's not much liked. There is obvious difference in which mage, warrior or thief character would deal with obstacles and yes, mage could just choose to fly over them and slowly BBQ the monsters if there is room for it. Or thief could just sneak straight for the room where McGuffin is hidden in and pick the lock, without searching and defeating mid boss from across the level. And warrior could just ME STRONK, ME SMASH! and carve bloody path trough every single enemy. Role playing! This is what it's about!

TES games are formed of linear quest lines in sandbox setting, meaning you can go almost anywhere to complete almost any part of any quest in almost any order you want, but the quest themself are still linear in design. And shallow. I swear, Fallout was bublished in 1997 and it had better writing and quest design than Skyrim.

[Max White]

I think the levitation should be in there because it's a legit use of magic in the game world.

Rooky mistake number 1: Just because it fits with the mythos, does not then make it a good mechanic. You should be building your world on solid mechanics, not adding mechanics based on the world.
The developer for the dungeons claimed he didn't take flying into account while designing the dungeons, so adding in flying just because 'Well you can shoot a fireball!' dosn't make up for this.

I think this kind of thing is called railroading and it's not much liked.

And yet the Elder scrolls games are very, very popular. The formula is very well liked by the general public. I think what you mean is you don't like it, and that is fine! You are allowed to not like things, but at the same time others are allowed to enjoy these things.
Look at all the games out there with very linear narrative, is it really fair to say that riding the rails is disliked? I don't think so. I think people like to be shown these things, and being limited in some way. While many people say they want the all powerful god mode stuff like flying and ultimate weapons and all that bullshit, you find that games that fall for this trap get somewhat bland very quickly.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

I think TES games are popular because a lot of people don't mind railroading. It can be fun to just play through a story. To complete it, you might say. I'd call a D&D campaign that's just a series of encounters which must be tackled in order a SCG too.

As for levitation, if the dungeon designer didn't take it into account, it's because the original design document said "there will be no levitation". Someone decided that the game would leave a feature out which had made it into the first 3 TES games: vertical traverse independent of preplaced ladders and stairs. I'm saying the feature should have been left in, not just because the game world would make sense with it, but because it was a good game mechanic in previous TES titles.

Sure you could abuse it. But you could abuse Alchemy in Morrowind. If you wanted to play a fun game of Morrowind you'd choose to ignore Alchemy, use it a little, or abuse it. They didn't just leave Alchemy out because they didn't want to deal with people collecting ingredients and mixing potions.

Leaving out levitation was just lame. It made the game easier to make, so it fit better into the dev schedule. Alternately, some misguided soul decided the game would be more fulfilling and enriching if you had fewer fun tools to use.

[Mr. Strange]

And yet the Elder scrolls games are very, very popular. The formula is very well liked by the general public. I think what you mean is you don't like it, and that is fine! You are allowed to not like things, but at the same time others are allowed to enjoy these things.

If you look at the fanbase in Morrowind and Skyrim you'll notice there's major difference between them. People who liked Morrowind remember it from it's story and world more than anything (epic abuses notwithstanding). Oblivion was dumbed down Morrowind with better graphics and combat system, made easier to get into at the expense of story and complexity of character developement. Skyrim turns that up to eleven, with story shorter than Morrowind side quest, in paper thin world, played with characters identical to one another. "Casual" is the word of the day here, and yes it sells. Just like CoD and Battlefield sequels and WoW clones sell year after year, but don't confuse these with earlier TES games and their fans. Their reasons for liking these games are completely different.

While many people say they want the all powerful god mode stuff like flying and ultimate weapons and all that bullshit, you find that games that fall for this trap get somewhat bland very quickly.

Here, my mod list.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

All ESMs and ESPs:
Skyrim (+update, all DLCs and patches)
Skyrim Sewers
Vigilant of Stendar Quests Master
1NordDungeonAlt
SkyUi
Tytanis
Character Creation Overhaul
CCO - Diverse Races And Genders
CCO - Dynamic Skill Progression
CCO - Oblivion Carry Weights
Deadly Monsters
Deadly Dragons
DragonCombatOverhaulDragonborn
Run For Your Lives
Civil War Overhaul
Skyrim Scaling Stopper
Alternate Life - Live Another Life
Better vampires
Vampirelordroyal
bVandRB Formlist
throneroom
When Vampires Attack
Populated Cities Towns Villages
Populated Lands Roads Paths
Cloaks
Cloaks - Dawnguard
Apocalypse - The Spell Package
OpenUnlock
Unstable Tower
Eld-combinePotions
Radiant and Unique Potions and Poisons
Harves Overhaul
HarvesOverhaulDawnguardDragonborn
Harves OverhaulCreatures
HarvesOverhaulCreaturesDawnguardDragonborn
humans drop human parts
Ars Metallica
Ars Metallica - Dawnguard
Ars Metallica - Hearthfire
Ars Metallica - Dragonborn
Honed Metal
Cutting Room Floor
The Paarthurnax Dilemma
WATER
WATER - DB
WATER - DB Waves
Real Clouds
Realistic Lighting Overhaul - Dawnguard Interiors
Realistic Lighting Overhaul - Dungeons
Realistic Lighting Overhaul - Major City Exteriors
Realistic Lighting Overhaul - Major City Interiors
Realistic Lighting Overhaul - Minor Cities and Town Interiors
Realistic Lighting Overhaul - Weathers
RLO - Adaptive Interiors Vanilla Weathers Patch
RealisticNights+DB+DG
Supreme Fog
Morning Fogs
CombatDramaOverhaul
FireAndIceOverhaul
Dr_Bandolier
Skyrim Immersive Creatures
Skyrim Immersive Creatures - DLC2
Immersive Patrols
Immersive Dawnguard
Immersive Dragonborn
Immersive Mercenaries
Immersive travelers
Immersive Werewolfs
Jornheim
Solstheim - The Lost Levels
Tundra Defence
_pocketempirebuilder (+HearthfireAddon)
Vigilant of Stendar Quests (+Dawnguard Patch)
Duel - Combat Realism
LeftHandRings
LeftHandRings - Dawnguard
WieldableLantern
Sneak Tools (+vanilla masks & hoods)
Stealth Skills Rebalanced Complete
Follower StealthKills
StealthPerksForFollowers - DB and DG compatable [sic]
KhalSpellMakingMod
Equipping Overhaul
DF127VileLair
AmazingFollowerTweaks
A Hypothetical Treachery - TheGreyLight
A Tragedy In Black - Enchanting Remastered - TheGreyLight
College Of Winterhold Staff Enchanter and Merchant
TheGreyLight's Summoning Enchantment
dovahkiinrelax
ElaborateEnchantments
HelgenReborn
RealisticNeedsAndDiseases (+patches)
RND_AnimalLoot
skyforgedWeapons
Throwing_Weapons_Redux
UD2_Enchant
Boots of Waterwalking
Waterwalking Spells, Tomes and Scrolls
Chesko_Frostfall
Convenient Horses
Command Dragon
3DNPC
DBBookBounds
Book Covers Skyrim
Enchanting Freedom

This is what I need to make Skyrim interesting. No more handholding. If you check some these out at nexus you'll find that half of them are for making Skyrim more !!!FUN!!!, and the other half are making Skyrim into RPG. In My Skyrim flimsy mage can't slug it out with cave bear for a minute while waiting for his magicka to restore, he'll die. You have to think like a mage; cast "Floating Bridge" and get to somewhere enemy can't reach, or cast "Arrow In The Knee" to stop their charge. Or cast "Floating Bridge" over cliff edge several times and when enemy corners you at the end, cast "Feather Fall" and jump down and land safely. Unlike said enemy when bridge spell times out... That's not OP at all, it's all necessary to survive in game system designed to handle more than one approach to problem solving and mage would die from one hit in high-level melee. Flying would be great and usefull spell, if not for the dragons. You know, actually dangerous dragons?

TL;DR: Skyrim is more hack and slash than RPG and great example of how not to do storytelling in RPG.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

What happens if you cast Arrow To The Knee on something completely lacking knees?

Are there such beasts?!

[Leafsnail]

Role Playing Game game