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Author Topic: (KSP LP) Bay12 Space Program: Conical Difficulties  (Read 72344 times)

GreatWyrmGold

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Re: (KSP LP) Bay12 Space Program: A Completely Successful Mission?!?
« Reply #555 on: April 19, 2014, 03:19:08 pm »

Everyone seems onboard for the kethane refueling base, so let's get to work on that. First, we need to actually...find kethane.
We start just before the beginning of Day 55 (Day 1 was when we launched the Minmus rocket. In theory. Don't remember if it actually was.) It takes only a bit over an hour before we blunder across some kethane.


Good, good.

Now, to design the rig/shuttle/etc.


2,000 units of charge in those batteries, a universal docking claw, solar panels, lights, sixteen tons of fuel capacity, lights, and of course kethane drilling, storage, and conversion capability. And 4800 m/s of Δv.

And a note so I don't forget my action groups: 1 is toggling drills, 2 is toggling the (white) landing lights, 3 is toggling the solar panels, 4 is toggling the (green, wide-beam) docking lights, and 5 toggles arming.
The launch rocket is a bunch of orange Jumbo fuel tanks with a Mainsail and six Skippers.


"The Mainsail and the Skippers, too, will do their very best/To make this joke again, again, until its hatred you confess."

I didn't add struts, but after a brief wobbly moment all is well. The ascent is swift, but leads to the Mainsail overheating. Oops. Luckily, it stops...and not a unit too soon.


...Carp, I didn't put heat radiators on the rig. Oh well, how much waste heat can half a dozen solar panels , four drills, and a kethane conversion unit cause?

It doesn't explode until 3,000 meters. Well...um...redesign time! But first...cathartic staging.


KSP just ain't the same without the occasional disaster. Even if they were intentional.

Hm, the rig's in one piece, and nicely explosion-decoupled. I wonder if I could safely land it?

Despite my best efforts, vertical speed continues to rise.

Those bits don't have landing legs, and they're falling like twice as fast as us. Better turn on the landing lights.

The landing lights at work!

That's a negative on the landing.

The landing legs succeeded in their duty, at least.


I move up the boosters, and then toss on some struts.
The Mainsail overheats again. This time, I turned down the throttle some, to avoid kasplosions. We pass 3,000 meters without incident, though I have to occasionally throttle back a tick (I once thought that the higher atmosphere didn't diffuse heat as well, but now...who knows?).
As with many of these gimbal-reliant multi-engine lower stages, roll sets in. Thanks to computers being better at turning rockets than people, though, I don't miss my gravity turn.
I drop the boosters around 21.5 km above sea level. I throttle up, only to discover the Mainsail heating up again. I'm remembering something about orange tanks and Mainsails...carp. I need to be more vertical than not just to keep my vertical velocity from dropping without exploding my engine.

Well. This has turned out to be an interesting, if still safe, launch.


"...but tonight I say, we must move forward, not backward; upward, not forward; and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom! ...From the bonds of gravity!"

It takes a bit under four minutes from launch to when we have an orbital speed above a kilometer per second and an apoapsis outside the atmosphere. The estimated burn time for circularization (assuming we keep the Mainsail the whole way through) is a minute fifteen seconds; I get back to the rocket 42 seconds from the node. I start burning, though we're still (barely) in the atmosphere. Whoo.


Beautiful, just beautiful...what's the solar panel action key again?

There we go. Beautiful, ain't it?


The engine is very nearly exploding, so I turn down throttle some. It doesn't help, but it doesn't hurt. Probably.
And guess what happens right after I type that?


...Probably not related to the throttle drop.

I drop the (not-quite-empty...well, before hacing the bottom kasplode) fuel tanks on that suborbital trajectory and fire up the Poodle just as we pass the node. Estimated burn time: Two minutes and change. I hope we don't hit the atmosphere. Again.
Six minutes. 1:12 of burn remaining, probably. Almost two km/s already. Still suborbital. Maybe 20% of the Δv to go.
Seven minutes. We're just barely orbital (technically; we'd hit a mountain or lose orbit from atmospheric drag if we didn't burn that last 74 m/s).
We enter the atmosphere again. I keep burning, until we run out of node and the craft starts spinning. Periapsis: 62.6 kilometers. Plan: Wait until we're at apoapsis (about 119 kilometers and 19.5 minutes out, currently), then circularize.
Fourteen and a half minutes after launch, we're out of the atmosphere. Apoapsis is almost 114 kilometers and twelve minutes away. It'll be easy. 40 m/s, six seconds at apoapsis. Circular orbit.
In the end, it's not quite as circular as planned--113.5 by 110.6--but it works.


And the sun rises.

We're 5.8 degrees off Minmus's plane. At the descending node, near periapsis, we need a 224 m/s burn to get 0.1 degrees off. We still have over 4,100 m/s left, though, so we're good.
I notice something else about the burn.


Minmusrise.

No reason to wait an orbit between burns, neh?


Easy, but not idealsy.

Is it just me, or is it really easy to get a collision course with Minmus given that I'm firing from Kerbal orbit and it's only like 120-odd kilometers across. It's like hitting the northern half of Wales from the Moon, with a rocket-propelled golf ball or something.


(Remarkable how narrow the line between "crashing" and "not even a close encounter" is.)
I eventually go for a 916.4 m/s burn that leads to me crashing if I don't do something about it. And something I will do!
Trying to get the ship to line up with the node is...annoying. I should have put some reaction wheels or RCS or something on here. The batteries are full, that's no problem, but the probe's tiny reaction wheels are trying to spin a craft that's currently a bit over 37 tons. Still...it eventually works.
The burn is estimated at 2:32. I warp to two minutes ahead of time, planning to burn at T-1:16.


It might be hard to tell, but we are heading for Minmus. For a landing, and hopefully not only in the right spot but without crashing.

Burn done, let's see how far we deviated. I hit the burn amount perfectly, within a dozen centimeters, so it's all down to the timing of the acceleration. (Inevitable, really.)


...
I hate you.


At least we won't crash...
Well, we fiddle with maneuver nodes on the centimeter scale.


Wait...is that an encounter after the escape?

Clearly, a hyper-efficient Oberth-affected burn won't work. We need a farther out, less efficient but more precise burn to trim our encounter to...well...an actual encounter.
Sadly, the first burn I plan (4.5 hours out) isn't much better. Trimming will need to be very close, indeed.
I've been discovering that "no periapsis," despite common sense, does not mean "I'm about to hit the world in question". It can also mean "Screw you; you're barely in the SoI but I'll make you think you're going to hit it, so you fiddle around trying to bring the periapsis enough to not crash. And/or, it'll make it impossible to tell how to adjust your trajectory to make it closer to the target."
It's a pain. Stupid game. Eventually, I schedule a 1.9 m/s burn seven days and change out. My vessel weighs 29,153 kilograms at the moment; it has a thrust of 220 kN, and will hence accelerate at 7.55 m/s2 at full throttle, which means that at 1/3 throttle it would take...less than a second to shift. One tick is almost four seconds. So, not a huge burn.
There's a week to wait, so I spend that watching the kethane finder find kethane.


Scan scan scan...

Memo to self: Scan slower.


A little testing determines that, in this orbit, I can't warp faster than 100x if I want to avoid skipping hexes. With this knowledge, I net a more complete knowledge about the kethane deposits of Minmus. The moon's speckled with them. Still, two and a half days--even Kerbal days--at only 100x time acceleration is a bit dull.
There's one particularly large patch of kethane we've discovered...


Is it in a crater? It looks like it is. Maybe a kethane-coated meteor hit Minmus some millenia ago?

A couple other such spots pop up as well, but that was the first and (arguably) the most notable.
With the help of the Kerbal Alarm Clock, we return to the rig with three minutes to the node. Good thing, because a solid fraction of that time is needed to spin into position.
Alright. Burn done, with the indicator at 0.0 m/s and jittering between red-X and green-check. Let's see how we did.


You can't see it, but this is jittering as well.

...Good enough.
We've a day before we hit Minmal influence, so let's scan for kethane at 100x time acceleration.


Geometry: Generally agreed to be the prettiest part of math.

Two more probably-sizable deposits.


After KAC alerts us, we jump to the rig being in Minmal influence. We turn retrograde and start burning, hoping for capture. I watch the Orbit speed drop, the Escape marker shift. I get into an ugly-but-functional orbit, making us drop below the half-fuel line.


Almost landed.

Next, to lower the orbit.


Seven days out...wait, why don't I just lower the periapsis to 10,000 meters from up here?

Much better.


I could switch to the kethane scanner for the next four hours and change, but eh.
I went a bit too far, bringing the periapsis down to about 2.3 km, well low enough to smash into some of Minmus's higher mountains. Hence, I turn prograde and burn slightly until the periapsis comes around 14 km.
Now, a circularization burn.


Not shown: Jittering about. Hell if I know why.

Four days out...enough to switch spacecraft.


But not before a shot of the Kerbal system.

Another large patch of kethane is located, notable for its location.


We were so close to striking green gold!


Nice shot.


Anyways, after more scanning, we're back at the rig. 60 m/s, eight seconds, burn four out. First, turn it the right way.


A lovely scene, marred only by the weird orange solar panels and the darkness.

We're now in a 15.6/14 kilometer orbit above Minmus, roughly equatorial. Now, we need to choose a landing spot. It obviously needs to have kethane, and ideally would be near the equator, for easier rendezvous with craft in a standard equatorial orbit.
We have one tile of kethane precisely on the equator. That should do, especially given its neighbors.


Nice how things work out.

But that will be in another episode tomorrow. I've already spent ~3.5 hours on this, although admittedly a fair portion of it was waiting for time to pas at 100x time acceleration.
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MarcAFK

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Re: (KSP LP) Bay12 Space Program: Rig In Orbit, Ready to Land (Badly)
« Reply #556 on: April 20, 2014, 09:04:12 am »

It looks like those hexes are about 2km across, so it really is a short distance from your earlier landing sites.
You could make a colony there :p
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: (KSP LP) Bay12 Space Program: Rig In Orbit, Ready to Land (Badly)
« Reply #557 on: April 20, 2014, 09:31:15 am »

Quite possibly.

Mind if I ask where you got that 2 km figure?
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Re: (KSP LP) Bay12 Space Program: Rig In Orbit, Ready to Land (Badly)
« Reply #558 on: April 20, 2014, 09:43:08 am »

The wiki says minmus has a radius of 60km, I counted about 30 hexes from halfish of minmus.. so er, It's probably really accurate!
According to the Kethane thread the size of the hexes depends on the planet, Maybe it has something to do with the coordinates.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: (KSP LP) Bay12 Space Program: Rig In Orbit, Ready to Land (Badly)
« Reply #559 on: April 23, 2014, 07:45:49 pm »

Alright. Sorry for not updating on Sunday as promised. I had the update ready, but then I discovered I was muted when I tried to post it. Just my luck, I guess...
Anyways. Short version, we landed on the Minmal surface pretty well, but with two complications. The first is that we're not sure which hex we wound up in; we could be in a hex we know has kethane, in a hex that probably has kethane, or a hex that probably doesn't have kethane. The second, and more important, is that we wound up falling over and landing on our (surprisingly sturdy) solar panels. Nothing I tried got it to get back up without crashing. So, we are instead going to need to get it up with some other method. I can think of a few suggestions, like a "tractor" vehicle or a winch or something, but I'm interested to see what you guys advise me to do. So...let's get brainstorming and voting, I guess.
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MarcAFK

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Re: (KSP LP) Bay12 Space Program: Update Failed; Summary Posted
« Reply #560 on: April 24, 2014, 01:49:11 am »

You could turn off gravity and just reaction wheel the thing untill it's upright then hope it doesn't break when you turn it back on, or erm, yeah a winch might work.
Edit; You know, well placed landing legs can force craft upright, and KAS allows you to remove and reattach them, so I guess you could just send one guy there with a bunch of legs and maybe a winch and see what you can do.
Or just write it off and launch an new one, or possibly send someone or something there to repair the old one at the same time.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 07:23:53 am by MarcAFK »
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: (KSP LP) Bay12 Space Program: Update Failed; Summary Posted
« Reply #561 on: April 24, 2014, 09:05:41 am »

You could turn off gravity and just reaction wheel the thing untill it's upright then hope it doesn't break when you turn it back on
What's the fun in cheating? I mean, when it's not just saving you the last, tedious, annoying, argh step of a process you otherwise completed.

Quote
Edit; You know, well placed landing legs can force craft upright, and KAS allows you to remove and reattach them, so I guess you could just send one guy there with a bunch of legs and maybe a winch and see what you can do.
Hm...hadn't thought of that.

Quote
Or just write it off and launch an new one, or possibly send someone or something there to repair the old one at the same time.
Eh.
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Re: (KSP LP) Bay12 Space Program: Rig In Orbit, Ready to Land (Badly)
« Reply #562 on: April 24, 2014, 09:41:33 am »

Alright. Sorry for not updating on Sunday as promised. I had the update ready, but then I discovered I was muted when I tried to post it. Just my luck, I guess...

Discovered? :V
Toady posted in the Civ V thread, which you were flamewarring in, when he muted you. I would have thought you would have noticed then. vOv

P.S. I opened this thread and clicked to the last page because I saw the title and thought to myself "Update failed? There was another update to KSP?"
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 09:44:28 am by Shadowlord »
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: (KSP LP) Bay12 Space Program: Rig In Orbit, Ready to Land (Badly)
« Reply #563 on: April 24, 2014, 10:38:11 am »

Discovered? :V
Toady posted in the Civ V thread, which you were flamewarring in, when he muted you. I would have thought you would have noticed then. vOv
Excuse me for not reading every thread I ever posted in while I'm writing an update.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: (KSP LP) Bay12 Space Program: Update Failed; Summary Posted
« Reply #564 on: April 26, 2014, 10:09:18 am »

Alright. Let's try that KAS thing.

First, we design a ship. A neat little thing, really. First, I spend a lot of time trying to design a neat little rocket with a detachable fuel tank up front and an engine in back, for the return from Minmus, but fuel lines were...problematic. So, instead, I just remove the "detachable" requirement and go nuts.


The Kasper RRV, which is capable of landing on and returning from either the Mun or Minmus thanks to its 2.6+ km/s of Δv. I intend to use this 5-ton craft in future missions.

Shame I can't save it as a subassembly.


I discover that, contrary to what Councilor Mark Afkerman claimed, you can't put landing legs in these containers.


Lies...LIES!

But then I notice a couple of other things I could add.
Click. Click. Yup. All I need is available. It should help the thing turn over, if nothing else. And if it fails...send another mission. You know how much I like not telling you my plans, so let's just skip to the final rocket design.

It's a simple rocket, really. A Skipper, to get us to space; a Poodle, to get us to orbit and Minmus; and the Kasper, to get us back.
Bill's flying this mission, being the mechanical brains of the trio. Jeb tries very hard, managing to slip in after I'm sure I ordered Bill to go, but in the end Bill gets his chance.


He is clearly considering his career choices.

It's a pretty simple little rocket, really.


The Skipper runs through half its fuel in the first minute and 18 seconds, getting us over four kilometers up. Starting to think I should have added another fuel tank, or maybe some boosters. Still, we're rising pretty darn fast...but it wouldn't hurt to turn the throttle down just a little, right? Keep the velocity at a barely-rising ~100 m/s. It jumps up to 125 when I take my attention off the throttle for a bit, but that's no biggie. Still well below the 200 m/s are-you-insane mark. Once we hit the gravity turn, at about 20% fuel, we need to up the throttle to keep our time-to-apoapsis high enough.
The Skipper ran out of fuel at to km ASL, but our apoapsis was at almost 29 km--pretty good, for that early in the flight. Even better, thanks to a little fuel tank and such, the Poodle had a TWR of almost 1.4. Between the efficiency of the Poodle and the boost given by the Skipper, we easily get to a nice little coasting thing, apoapsis above 70 km.
By burning, oh, 64% of the "to-Minmus" stage's fuel.

...

Simulation!

Sticking another semi-jumbo fuel tank on the rocket brings its surface TWR below 1. More importantly, I remember we have real Jumbos now. So, after fiddling with fuel, I need to add boosters. Three Kerbodyne liquid fuel boosters, to be precise, giving the craft a massive 3.25 initial TWR. (It could have been 3.26, but I added nose cones.)


And who wouldn't?

It amazes me just how much oomph these things have. Throttle down to half, and we've still got 0-100 m/s in well under 15 seconds. For those interested, that's over 200 mph, and about as fast as nerve impulses go. That's right--this rocket is moving at the speed of thought. It's rolling, however, at the speed of ignorance. Luckily, it pitches faster.
Keeping the rocket from wasting fuel on the sound barrier is harder than it sounds. Thankfully, that isn't so important once you get out of the lower atmosphere. By the time we do so, enough fuel has been shed to give us a TWR of over 5.5, so it's time to let 'er rip! The TWR shoots past 6 (I miss the eventual value) and the apoapsis jumps past 30 km by the time those boosters die at 17 km. I hear some explosions, probably from the boosters hitting each other, as I fiddle with pitch to get a more optimal ascent. I then notice that the boosters are still attached. Why do they always do that? Why is it so hard to get the bigger fuel tanks positioned on the frigging decouplers? I even used the truss ones, which should have been--never mind. Point is, thanks in large part to those boosters, our TWR is terrible. 0.75. I need to go vertical for a while to avoid losing too much vertical velocity. Luckily, it begins rising soon enough. Yay!
I push the craft into orbit, then drag the periapsis out of the ground, discarding the booster stage fairly early on in the second task. Unsurprisingly, apoapsis comes and goes before we can complete it, even though (thanks to the first boosters not falling off) TWR actually increased when we switched to the Poodle (and the tiny spacecraft that it propels). I get into a 155-55 orbit (mere moments before re-entering the atmosphere), and while you'll note that 55 km is still inside the atmosphere, have no fear! I have a plan. It's called "maneuver node at apoapsis". Bill seems to like it.


SONUVAKITSCH, that's terrifying.


On an unrelated note, the rocket looks really sciency when you turn it around.


The apoapsis drops by 25 kilometers, down to 130, by the time we leave atmosphere. Eh. Plan a maneuver node (estimated burn time: 3 seconds), wait ten minutes to get there, circular orbit.


The waiting is the prettiest part.

Having managed that, the rest of the mission can wait a bit. I've had enough issues for right now, and need to leave soon anyways.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 10:14:09 am by GreatWyrmGold »
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MarcAFK

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Re: (KSP LP) Bay12 Space Program: It's Hit A Slow Bit
« Reply #565 on: April 26, 2014, 03:00:51 pm »

Oh erm....You don't need to put the legs into KAS containers.
You can remove them from the craft itself and move them around (or am i wrong? I swear I've done this before).
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Re: (KSP LP) Bay12 Space Program: It's Hit A Slow Bit
« Reply #566 on: April 26, 2014, 03:01:52 pm »

He can do both.
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Re: (KSP LP) Bay12 Space Program: It's Hit A Slow Bit
« Reply #567 on: April 26, 2014, 10:26:33 pm »

Oh erm....You don't need to put the legs into KAS containers.
You can remove them from the craft itself and move them around (or am i wrong? I swear I've done this before).
Oh.
...
I see. Whoops. Ah well.
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Re: (KSP LP) Bay12 Space Program: It's Hit A Slow Bit
« Reply #568 on: April 27, 2014, 01:49:07 am »

I've accidentally removed landing legs during an Eva then found my landing somewhat difficult because of the aerodynamic change caused by putting it back non symmetrical with the rest if the legs. Specifically the craft flipping over and exposing its unshielded parts to plasma during reentry.
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Re: (KSP LP) Bay12 Space Program: It's Hit A Slow Bit
« Reply #569 on: April 27, 2014, 02:22:39 pm »

Alright. You may recall that, when we ended last time, I had gotten the craft into orbit. Good first step, I'm halfway to everywhere.

First, a 230 m/s burn to correct inclination. Even though we don't have an estimated burn time, we can calculate one. With just under 12.75 tons of craft and 220 kN of thrust, we have ~17.25 m/s2 of thrust, and hence will take about 13 seconds to burn.
The game sorta freezes when I try to throttle up, so I screw up a bit on timing. Still, I'm only 0.1 degrees off--pretty good, neh? Next, a Minmus encounter burn, impeded slightly by the fact that the Mun is in the way.


Curse you, sky-orb!

The Mun's put me in a Catch-22 situation; if I burn fast enough to get past it, I'm going to be getting to Minmal altitude too soon (and also at escape velocity); if I burn slow enough that I don't encounter it much, I'm nowhere near high enough.
Moving an orbit ahead won't do anything, and I doubt moving more will do much. So much for my optimal ascent path.
Eventually, I control my incercept path to end up near Minmus.


Behind-The-Scenes Look: I didn't expect this to work.

Rounding to the nearest number in the MNN screws everything up. Eventually, though...


Damn.

Let's pause here and fiddle with the options. Wait, could I have done that from the ship screen? Too late, checking main-menu settings.
Nope.
Where's that "conic patch limit" thing that lets me predict farther into the future?
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