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Total Members Voted: 7

[Alexandria]

And no answer. Very useful for trying to avoid a huge fight.

[kj1225]

I have the best ideas. Would summon kidney stones be where you put people you really hate? Or do you put them in people you really hate?

[Culise]

What if we divide it up?

Well, sharing is caring, but probably still not the best idea.  But seriously, for the would-be power-monger, Zita's already done some research along those lines, but unless she shoots the idea down or figures out an effective alternate route IC, we don't know that yet. 

Lol unless you free them your proving beyond doubt your evil.
Although for now thats not on us only our resident geomancer has the knowledge to dismantle the core.

Kyle agreed to be trained though so he's not against it and Carl is judging on my actions which as he said haven't been all that bad so he's not really thoroughly against it either even though he dislikes it.

I have a question though. These summons masters can kill them for good, how am I supposed to do as you said and free the summons without killing the Gnolls controlling them and those defending them? The summons can't escape until I remove the stones from the Gnolls which would require me to kill them.

Bait the summoners into sending their summons after what they perceive to be the primary threat, while we have a small band go after the summoners to eliminate them.  Eliminate the summoners once we know they're a threat, but while they aren't expecting us (and don't have their summons called at all).  Disable the summoned creatures without killing them (they can be healed by channeling mana, regardless), then finish up the summoners.  That's just off the top of a (sleep-deprived) head. 

[kj1225]

And magical people would have to stay behind so Kyle, Torban, Solairi, Carl... we would have a lot of people staying back.

[Alexandria]

I didn't say kill the summons. I said the summoners. Summons are immortal. Even if they die in combat they just go back to the stone and heal in a few hours.

He said he'd rescue the people not kill the people who we're holding them. Fine with normal prisoners or slaves in theory. Impossible to do in a situation where the people holding them have them terrified into obedience and can kill them the moment they argue. The only option I can see to free the summons is kill a path through every Gnoll between me and the summoners then kill the summoners as well.


Actually nope, I have a plan in motion to take out the summoners already. I talked a god into a quick age boost. The wolf pups will be full grown in short order and Wolfenstien has vanished off to put it's 3 lifetimes of experience into training them up to combat standards as a pack. Your idea has a point about us staying hidden but the Gnolls will attack us eventually in pretty large numbers with at least one summoner along, they'll know I'm a summoner and watch for summoners.

Wolfenstien registers as undead not a summon due to his unique nature and the wolves don't at all. Once the summon is fighting me my pack will take it down with a surprise attack. It's the trick I mentioned yesterday. While they're all focused on the big battle with us my pack can hit the summoner and once he's down they have no direct method of keeping me out of the main battle. With a little luck I can get Kyle trained enough to summon Alma by then she'll be great for crowd control as well to set groups up to be hit by the bigger special attacks or bombs.


That the key problem I'm having. I know I can free them but I can't figure out a way to do it without killing the Gnolls.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I think, if it's about finished, it's probably time to figure out IC what to do about the whole "trapped souls of over 500 men, women, and children" thing before we leave the area for our next destination.

Um, yeah.

Lol unless you free them your proving beyond doubt your evil.

Really. An action even self-proclaimed Evil Overlords will not do is evil.

...and Carl is judging on my actions which as he said haven't been all that bad so he's not really totally against it if the summoner is using it with honor and respect and for good causes as I am.

As you say you are. Like you said before, we haven't really had a chance to get to trust each other.
And, like Carl said, he doesn't have any particular reason to believe Torban.

I have a question though. These summons masters can kill them for good, how am I supposed to do as you said and free the summons without killing the Gnolls controlling them and those defending them? The summons can't escape until I remove the stones from the Gnolls which would require me to kill them.

It's called a "Catch-22," Alexandria. Aren't they absolutely fun?

And no answer. Very useful for trying to avoid a huge fight.

1. Didn't the GM say he was going to sleep?
2. This isn't exactly one of the issues.

[Alexandria]

That was aimed at Giglamesh not the GM. He said he'd rescue to the prisoner not kill the people holding them. So I wanted to know how he'd do that in my situation.

I intended to kill the Gnoll summoners since more then a week ago, before I knew they were using threat of death to hold the summoners in enslavement that just gave me an additional reason to hate them. One that should convince even the rest of you it's more then fair to kill them with extreme prejudice.


I know he said he had no reason to trust me. Has none to distrust me either so Carl is more or less neutral maybe slightly on the distrust side of the line. Given his distrust of summoners Carl has to admit my reasoning for the test were valid even if the test was a bit harsh.

[GreatWyrmGold]

That was aimed at Giglamesh not the GM. He said he'd rescue to the prisoner not kill the people holding them. So I wanted to know how he'd do that in my situation.

My bad.

I intended to kill the Gnoll summoners since more then a week ago, before I knew they were using threat of death to hold the summoners in enslavement that just gave me an additional reason to hate them. One that should convince even the rest of you it's more then fair to kill them with extreme prejudice.

Acceptable, as long as there aren't practical reasons not to (ie, high risk or violating a treaty that stops the gnolls from killing us).

I know he said he had no reason to trust me. Has none to distrust me either so Carl is more or less neutral maybe slightly on the distrust side of the line. Given his distrust of summoners Carl has to admit my reasoning for the test were valid even if the test was a bit harsh.

...?
I'd say he has a good amount of reason to distrust you.
1. Simple mathematics. A minority of people are trustworthy.
2. How has Torban acted? Arrogant and self-obsessed, mainly.
3. Also, he's been making some...questionable choices lately.
-a. Adopting wolf cubs? Untrained, unbound wolf cubs? Possibly diseased?
-b. The whole...can't quite remember her name thing. (I'm not good with names.) Carl doesn't know much about it, but it sure sounds fishy for both involved.
-c. On that note, teaching Kyle--who he (Torban) had just met and who hadn't exactly been showing optimal judgement--binding, then giving her said plantgirl.
4. Torban also seems to be dodging any kind of guilt he might have to own up to. Trying to blame Kyle for being taught, claiming that binding isn't all that bad, etc.
That's just the big things. Overall...Torban's been a bit, what's the word, unpleasant. And by "a bit" I mean "significantly".

Now give me a reason to trust Torban.

[Alexandria]

A minority means that some are and in this Case Torban is in the minority but thats not really a valid reason for distrust it's a valid reason to wait and see which side he falls on since abstract odds are not valid proof.

How IC has he acted arrogant and self obsessed? He talked politely with almost everybody except in 1-2 situations. He offered and agreed to help every time he was asked and beyond that he's had very little actual IC interaction. So the strength of a couple of short conversations is hardly viable otherwise that same argument fits 2-3 of the characters. In 1-2 situations yes. Note that was mostly with Kyle who'm he's now working with if not buddies with and once with USEC after USEC had effectively insulted him first in a very high stress situation. It was arrogant but it's hardly unreasonable in those circumstances.

I didn't give him the plant girl. She didn't give me any choice in the matter at all once she was free she made her choice and would have broken me in half if I'd got in the way. Hardly my judgement and you are the ones who argued against slavery. Now your telling me I should have forced her not to make a choice herself? Which is it?

The pups are hardly a major reason not to trust Torban.
Oh no he cares so much he decided not to leave 5 baby wolves to die of starvation!!!! He's a monster and clearly can't be trusted. But if he'd abandoned them to die he could be. Also please show 1 single reason for that worry. They played with people ate, slept and generally acted cute and cuddly. I'm not seeing any reason his choice was bad.

What name thing? I actually can't remember what thats about at all. I don't remember forgetting any names or being asked for a name at all.

Actually Torban did admit himself he knows it wasn't a good idea and accepted it and the outcome. The bit he's not accepting is that it's his fault Kyle did it, he handed him the gun it's not his fault Kyle fired it. Besides would you publicly admit it in front of strangers? What he's willing to admit isn't everything.
He accepts his portion of the blame but not the full blame.



Oh as for reasons to trust Torban I have 2 right now.

1 he set Alma free in a new body the moment she was recovered an action that goes completely against his own interests if he's really arrogant and self interested and can't be trusted to keep his word with the summons thing.

2 and far more importantly. With several minutes of advanced warning more then enough time to escape and despite the fact that both you and USEC attempted it he made 0 attempt to escape and save himself. Instead he stayed behind, tried to warn you causing personal injury then effectively lead the group to victory very likely saving the lives of at least some of the group in the process putting himself into mortal danger to save the rest of you.

Personally I'd say 2 is a pretty big reason to trust him if you keep the entirely OOC fact that it was rigged out of it and since IC you also have no idea he didn't share the plan immediately.
How exactly don't you have a reason to trust a man who risked his own life to save yours while you fled? I'm relatively certain risking his life for you all out weighs a couple of insulting conversations.

[Alexandria]

Ops.

[GreatWyrmGold]

A minority means that some are and in this Case Torban is in the minority but thats not really a valid reason for distrust it's a valid reason to wait and see which side he falls on since abstract odds are not valid proof.

...I'll see if I can argue against this, but I'm not quite sure what you're saying, so bear with me if this doesn't correspond to your intent.
Simply put, what do you call someone who trusts everyone s/he meets? Naive, foolish, gullible? None of these are good things, or fit a high Mind score. About the best one should do is the Cold War adage of "Trust, but Verify," but Torban's been flunking the "Verify" stage.

How IC has he acted arrogant and self obsessed?

Do you want a detailed list of examples? I don't have time right now, but if you ask I can assemble one later.

I didn't give him the plant girl. She didn't give me any choice in the matter at all once she was free she made her choice and would have broken me in half if I'd got in the way. Hardly my judgement and you are the ones who argued against slavery. Now your telling me I should have forced her not to make a choice herself? Which is it?

This is Carl's perspective. I, OOC, am a bit confused as to why Alma chose to go with Kyle.* Is it so unreasonable that Carl, who doesn't have my OOC knowledge, would not jump to the conclusion that she demanded to go back to the guy who broke her?
*Seriously...huh?

The pups are hardly a major reason not to trust Torban.

They're certainly a reason to trust his judgement, which if you'll note is what that was about.

Also please show 1 single reason for that worry.

Well excuse me for putting real-world logic into a game for a situation when no fantastic elements are directly involved. Wolf cubs are not puppies, and I'lll be damned if my non-stupid character expects them to act as such!

What name thing? I actually can't remember what thats about at all. I don't remember forgetting any names or being asked for a name at all.

That was me forgetting Alma's name.

Actually Torban did admit himself he knows it wasn't a good idea and accepted it and the outcome. The bit he's not accepting is that it's his fault Kyle did it, he handed him the gun it's not his fault Kyle fired it.

BS. Torban chose to teach binding to a man he just met, who had shown no signs of being able to handle the power and the responsibility but several signs that he shouldn't (see: Alma). The best Torban can claim is the Idiot Defense: "I didn't realize the obvious fact!"
And you know what? That's still a reason not to trust Torban.

Besides would you publicly admit it in front of strangers? What he's willing to admit isn't everything.

And this is supposed to make him more trustworthy, how?

He accepts his portion of the blame but not the full blame.

Not from what I've seen.

1 he set Alma free in a new body the moment she was recovered an action that goes completely against his own interests if he's really arrogant and self interested and can't be trusted to keep his word with the summons thing.

...and then put him in the care of Kyle.

2 and far more importantly. With several minutes of advanced warning more then enough time to escape and despite the fact that both you and USEC attempted it he made 0 attempt to escape and save himself. Instead he stayed behind, tried to warn you causing personal injury then effectively lead the group to victory very likely saving the lives of at least some of the group in the process putting himself into mortal danger to save the rest of you.

Oh, goodie, you know the value of teamwork. Guess what: Even the most horrible of crooks know that.

How exactly don't you have a reason to trust a man who risked his own life to save yours while you fled? I'm relatively certain risking his life for you all out weighs a couple of insulting conversations.

1. How horrible of Carl to not run up and punch the absurdly massive golem! WHAT THE HELL ELSE WAS HE SUPPOSED TO DO?
2. Torban was saving his own hide as much as anyone's. Do you really think you could outrun a creature whose legs are as tall as trees?
2a. And if it's bound to one spot...why did we fight it again?
3. Again, "Willing to act as part of a team" does not make one trustworthy, it merely makes one smart. Even the worst villains know that alienating people is a bad thing.

[Alexandria]

Take one of the horses. Out running the Golem would have been no problem at all if he'd just tried to escape on a horse. Also I did point out that USEC who is a fighter also tried to run away where I did not as evidence since I admitted for your character it was sensible. The golem was slow enough to be outran if Torban had chosen to do it.

I had by far the best odds of escape but never even attempted in, generally speaking when somebody risks his life for you the fact that you hid for a reason does not make his act any less courageous. He had no obligation to fight for you or for the team at great risk to his own life but he did without hesitation.

I'm confused, first you said taking the pups was a reason not to now you said it's a reason he can be trusted.

Also I shouted for all to hear that you should all stay away, that it was between the two of them alone which does mean I'm not involved in it. So Carl knows I didn't do it. He was also present for the talk where I mentioned multiple times that he chose to bind her and she chose to accept it. More IC evidence that I was not involved. So that reason does not fit unless he's ignoring what's been said. Even Kyle said he and she chose to do it.

He admitted multiple times that he knows it was a bad choice. I can quote it tonight if needs be. He did accept he'd done something bad and knew it might go badly. He did accept his share.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Take one of the horses. Out running the Golem would have been no problem at all if he'd just tried to escape on a horse.

Really. A spooked horse. Which is not capable of knocking down trees.
A bit of a long shot, compared to working as a team.

I had by far the best odds of escape but never even attempted in, generally speaking when somebody risks his life for you the fact that you hid for a reason does not make his act any less courageous. He had no obligation to fight for you or for the team at great risk to his own life but he did without hesitation.

It was still his best chance for survival. Besides, courage does not equate to trustworthiness.

I'm confused, first you said taking the pups was a reason not to now you said it's a reason he can be trusted.

When did I say the latter?

Also I shouted for all to hear that you should all stay away, that it was between the two of them alone which does mean I'm not involved in it. So Carl knows I didn't do it. He was also present for the talk where I mentioned multiple times that he chose to bind her and she chose to accept it. More IC evidence that I was not involved. So that reason does not fit unless he's ignoring what's been said. Even Kyle said he and she chose to do it.

What the heck happened, anyways? I thought this all was happening somewhere else.

He admitted multiple times that he knows it was a bad choice. I can quote it tonight if needs be. He did accept he'd done something bad and knew it might go badly. He did accept his share.

He accepts a sliver of the guilt when he owns a slice.

[Alexandria]

In the initial list. You said he'd made questionable choices to make him less trustworthy and taking in the pups was number 3a. Taking in untrained, unbound wolf pups. Disease is fair enough but trained and bound is hardly a valid argument for 5 pups that couldn't kill a rabbit let alone one of us.

It was in the middle of camp when it happened lol that's why I had to warn off half the group from intervening in those 2 people's problem. You should have heard me shouting it.

He accepts that he set up the problem but that Kyle made the final choice. Which is accurate. Not a good thing or reason to trust him but true. Kyle did make the ultimate choice that created the problem so it's half on Torban and half on Kyle which is what he was saying.


The horses were fine when USEC fled and the golem cut them off he ran when it showed up. I had several minutes warning before it showed. On a horse I could have been half a mile away before it showed . More then far enough to be out of it's range .

[GiglameshDespair]

He kind of is obligated, isn't he? The gods talk to him constantly. If he abandoned their holy plan at the first sign of danger, they'd never let him live it down, would they? At least one of his summons would also refuse to serve someone who ran away from battle and abandoned his companions, so he'd also lose in that aspect.

Giving someone unsuitable the final choice is also a form of recklessness.