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[notquitethere]

Solymr, MOWE, You guys are the least likeliest to be scum. The vote is the weapon of town. If town players don't vote then they let scum mislynch. You need to get in here and make cases.

[Persus13]

4maskwolf-
Mastahcheese-
notquitethere- Tiruin, 4maskwolf, Caz
Caz-
Superblackcat-
Darkpaladin109- notquitethere
Solymr-
Tiruin-
MyOwnWorstEnemy-
+!!scientist!!+-
No Lynch-

Not Voting- SBC, Darkpaladin109, +!!scientist!!+, mastahcheese, MOWE, Solymr,

0 votes to Extend
0 votes to Shorten

Day 2 has been extended to Monday March 3rd, and will end at 11:00 PM EST

[Solymr]

Alright, I'll speak up about the three most suspicious players for me:
NQT:
You seem to be fond of attacking lurkers. Now that Caz answered you, you switch to DP. Not sure why didn't you attack SBC, too obvious?

Caz:
Seems to have stopped caring about the posts. Not sure if confident or has given up.

DP:
Acting most suspicious from long time and still not posting much.

I'm not sure who to vote out of these three right now.

[notquitethere]

Soly, I'm keen to get players to contribute-- we can't get good reads on people that don't play. But look, you'll notice that I've queried the actions of active players too (like Mastahcheese). And I've got outstanding questions waiting to be answered from SBC. I can't vote everyone at the same time! My reasons for voting DP are as follows:

- They've been active on the forum but their only action here has been to say that they want to avoid attention.
- They've made no cases: this is something scum and third parties often do.
- We can't have players like this responsible for deciding town's fate at LYLO. That's how town loses games.

Do you disagree with any of these points? I'm current lynch target, it behooves you to be sure I'm the best candidate to be lynched today.

[Silthuri]

First off, extend. I'd like to hear from as many people as possible before the day ends.

Secondly, Solymr,
How would NQT attacking SBC be too obvious?

Thirdly, mastahcheese, upon looking back at the goings on lately, you've been acting very differently than you were in the BM. D1 you went after Solymr and basically ignored IG, pursuing Solymr relentlessly and seeming to think that every little oddly worded phrase was a scumtell. He even told you that English isn't his first language and small little inconsistencies in his wording arose from this. Even with IG and all of his slips and tells, you never abandoned your pursuit of Solymr. Even when it was just down to small little things like when Solymr said this. and you said this. And then you called him out here. I fail to see how this is scummy. I was town in my first mafia game and I was constantly asking myself "is this how a townie should act?" because I didn't want to mess up and give off any scum tells. I do believe Solymr is town and that you were trying your damnedest to catch him in a slip. Yet it's D2 and you've dropped your case on him. Were you trying to save IG by drawing attention away from him and now that it's not a very worthwhile endeavor, you've moved on to other things?

And last but not least...

Tiruin:

MOWE

Tiruin:

Everyone else: Do you seriously believe that today should be spent in debate and all? What if the scumteam knows how to circumnavigate the usual 'scumtells' and play easy? As in, play on the aggressive?
How do you treat scumtells when done by a player who has a reputation of being scummy? How do you treat analysis from a player who has a reputation of being 'good' at hiding scumtells?[/b]

Well I think D1 can be a bunch of debate. What else could it be? Lies are easy to keep to in the beginning, but are hard to maintain over time. Here's where we begin testing the mettle of the scum and seeing how good they are at acting. There is no such thing as perfect. The scumteam may know how to avoid most scumtells, but odds are they'll slip up somewhere.
Scummy players also have a norm I would guess. Even if they're scummy as town, I'd expect the scumminess when they're actually scum to be quite different. If they're good at hiding scumtells, well like I said, they have to slip up sometime.

Hmm, interesting. You see this as a game of when people will slip and see differing mindset-actions according to role or alignment. Admirable.
What else can D1 be varies according to what the people put into it--the best way to aim is to follow it up, meaning rather than a debate of two specified fronts, it turns to a general attitude of discernment and curiosity. Which means a bunch of words to look back on.
Though I do agree with most here: how would you discern a town-slip from a scum-slip? Is it in their reaction, their response, or how they do so-or anything else?

I'm not entirely sure there is a difference between a town-slip and a scum-slip, aside from one being an innocent slip and the other not so innocent. After one makes a slip, town or scum, how they react to accusations can tell a lot about them. For example, getting extremely defensive in the face of accusation is pretty scummy.

[4maskwolf]

NQT: You make a convincing argument, but there are a few points in your answer that make me uncomfortable removing the vote.  See the following:

This neatly ignores my mid-Day 1 vote on Imperial Guardsman. Also, if you think, looking at Caz's play, that he's experienced then I think you need to look again. Scum have an incentive to kill competent players.

On the flip side of that coin, a player who has played in more games with you likely has a better feel for your playstyle and can likely more easily identify your scumtells.  Despite whatever incompetence you may ascribe to the person, that, at the very least, is true.  You conveniently ignore this point in your analysis, however.

Did you even read the thread?! I voted Scientist and Imperial Guardsman. I've had a wider range of cases than anyone else in this game. Having a narrow range of cases or absolutely no cases is a scum tell.

My apologies, I appear to have missed those votes of yours.  I'll freely admit that I'm wrong on this point.  However:

If I were scum I'd get rid of the competent active players, like you, Solymr, MOWE or Cheese. That'd make more sense than DarkStar.

While I am flattered by being called competent, MOWE was not particularly active day 1, as you yourself noted in a previous post.  So why is she on your list of ACTIVE players?  Scientist was almost as active day one and he didn't make the list.  Smells like trying to protect a scumbuddy to me.

You'll see that, as the town cop, I made the exact same defence of a suicidal player (who, lo and behold, turned out to be town) over a year ago. I was wrong this time

Over a year ago.  You have a good memory for your games, but that doesn't change the fact that this time you were wrong.  Last time you had the benefit of being a cop; this time, I can only assume that you knew alignment through being mafia.  Frankly, if a player does a suicide like that they either aren't that interested in playing the game anymore (or downright done with the game, see me in day 2 of the last beginner mafia) or they are a scum trying to play a WIFOM game with the town.

It pleases me that you've put a lot of effort into trying to figure things out and get to the truth. This is good play. BU#ut good play also involves not becoming emotionally invested in your own cases and recognising where you're wrong. And you are wrong about this, as hopefully I've been able to clearly show. Your argument rests on the faulty premise that I've only been targeting experienced players, and also that a player that makes strong use of their vote is scummier than players that don't vote at all. Reflect deeply Wolf, do you really think I'm the scummiest player in the game?

My argument never rested on the concept of a strong voter being scummy, it rested on WHO you voted for.  It is also telling that, upon this accusation, you IMMEDIATELY switched your vote to a new player.  I probably would have unvoted you had it not been for that, but the blatant redirection set off my internal scum alarm.
No, you are not the scummiest player in the game, that is reserved for DP.  If you notice, I voted for him at the beginning of the day.  But an inactive scumplayer is far less of a threat than an active one, and far better the evil we know than the evil we don't.
Also, I'm pretty sure that comma in the last sentence should have been a semicolon.  It set off my grammar alarms.

[mastahcheese]

notquitethere

If I were scum I'd get rid of the competent active players, like you, Solymr, MOWE or Cheese. That'd make more sense than DarkStar.

You consider me competent?

Cheese

Well, frick. I was about to consider voting Caz, except for the fact that he always frelling acts like this in every game I've read/played with him, but Wolf makes a pretty compelling point, I hadn't even considered that. I'm really wanting to see your response to that, NQT.

[1] Caz always acts like this? Interesting. [2] What do you think of my reply to Wolf?

I didn't know he was scum. The way that Solymr was wording his questions seemed to me like he was pretty convinced that IG was scum, so I went on with my line of questioning under the assumption that he was. Since Solymr never thought to point this out like you have now, it made it look (to me at least) like he wasn't going to argue the point, since it seemed as if he were already sure of the fact.
But after the NK on DarkStar, which made no sense to me, at least from a "Solymr is scum" perspective, I decided that maybe he simply didn't think of it in that light.

That puts your comments into a bit more perspective, thanks.

Yeah, I overlooked that one. SBC hasn't really seemed scummy to me (or present) so I guess I wasn't focusing on them as much as other people. And yeah, I think it's notable, but not enough to warrant a lurk-lynch if that's what you're getting at.

Well, we've got so many inactive players right now that it's probable best to get rid of the more suspicious of the active lurkers first.

[1] Well, in here and Semeter w love or whatever it's called, which is 100% of the games I've been in them with.
[2] Logical, laid out very well and covers all the points. I'm not going to say "NQT is 100% town" because there's always the possibility, but I can't find any fault through it.

MyOwnWorstEnemy

Thirdly, mastahcheese, upon looking back at the goings on lately, [1] you've been acting very differently than you were in the BM. [2] D1 you went after Solymr and basically ignored IG, pursuing Solymr relentlessly and seeming to think that every little oddly worded phrase was a scumtell. He even told you that English isn't his first language and small little inconsistencies in his wording arose from this. Even with IG and all of his slips and tells, you never abandoned your pursuit of Solymr. Even when it was just down to small little things like when Solymr said this. and you said this. And then you called him out here. I fail to see how this is scummy. [3] I was town in my first mafia game and I was constantly asking myself "is this how a townie should act?" because I didn't want to mess up and give off any scum tells. [4] I do believe Solymr is town and that you were trying your damnedest to catch him in a slip. [5] Yet it's D2 and you've dropped your case on him. [6] Were you trying to save IG by drawing attention away from him and now that it's not a very worthwhile endeavor, you've moved on to other things?

[1] Do you expect me to act the same way all the time? I can try different strategies.
[2] Yes, I do tend to look at everything someone says (when I'm pushing them) as a scumtell, in one way or another. The reason I do this is so I don't let the pressure off, hoping that eventually they crack. Look back at the very BM you referenced. Did I not do the same to 4maskwolf, until eventually he outed himself as cop? (and subsequently got lynched) It's a style, maybe not a very good one, but it seemed to work on Makeinu in that game, and then 4mask, so in my eyes, being relentless, even somewhat unreasonably so (in some people's eyes) gets results.
The reason I was ignoring IG at the time was because I decided to focus on a single target. There were already people going after IG, and I prefer to be the main voice when pressuring someone, not simply an additional one. I don't think my method would work as well if I didn't have the person's total attention. Again, look back at the BM on my cases on Makeinu and 4mask.
[3] There was some point in that BM where I mentioned this, in some regard. That I simply don't care about being noticed, or looking scummy, because I don't care if people see me as scummy or not. I don't care if town wants me dead, I don't care if scum wants me dead. I'm going to go after scum, and if someone doesn't like that, then they're entitled to that view, because I've got cases to press.
[4] Like I said earlier, I could be wrong. I could be wrong on every single person I've had suspicions on. It's part of the game. I thought he looked scummy at the time, you didn't.
[5] Here, let me go find that explanation again. Ah, here is it, in my analysis of DarkStar's final moments.

Currently, I'm confused about why multiple people are seriously considering lynching IG. NQT's argument is that IG won't seriously answer a question, and Solymr doesn't like the answer that IG gave for another question. NQT's argument would work with other evidence, but Solymr's argument makes no sense. If IG was scum, he'd probably give a more detailed scum answer than town answer, since he would have spent much more time thinking about what to do as scum than town.

It seems to me like he had his suspicions on Solymr. I could go back to my argument of the possibility of Solymr being scum, and offing him to get rid of the only person other than me to have suspicions on him, since just killing me would too obvious of a scumtell. But then again, it also seems like the sort of thing that scum would set up to frame him with, knowing that I'm going after him...
I going to give you the benefit of a doubt on this one, Solymr, I don't think you did it. But I'm still watching you.

The reason I dropped the case is because to me, DarkStar's death looked like a set up. He had pretty much no major cases on anyone (he basically thought practically everyone was slightly leaning scum), but he had minor cases on Solymr and DarkPaladin. I suspect that whoever killed DarkStar was hoping that someone would try to use this, and go after Solymr, since, you know, pretty much everyone has pointed out the problems with DP. I could be wretchedly overthinking this, but it made me second guess myself on Solymr.
[6] No, I wasn't trying to save him, I was just trying to think beyond what everyone else was thinking about.

[4maskwolf]

Also, Deathsword, you have you made your verdict yet?  I'd like to hear it.

[Superblackcat]

I am back, We won my state competition! But that came at the expense of getting no sleep that night, which means I'm currently in no position to read about 10 pages of stuff.

I will post tomorrow. If you guys are feeling particularly nice, you could quote and drop all your questions/important things you want me to address below, so I don't have to read as much.

*yawn-snore*

[notquitethere]

I'm not on a computer (stuck on phone) until Tuesday. Still haven't heard from Deathsword or Dark Pal, so best extend.


Wolf

NQT: You make a convincing argument, but there are a few points in your answer that make me uncomfortable removing the vote.  See the following:

Following up on unsettled suspicions is good. Ok:

On the flip side of that coin, a player who has played in more games with you likely has a better feel for your playstyle and can likely more easily identify your scumtells.  Despite whatever incompetence you may ascribe to the person, that, at the very least, is true.  You conveniently ignore this point in your analysis, however.

Conveniently ignore or don't take scum thought process into account because I'm not actually scum? You seem to have already made your mind up on the matter and are now twisting the evidence to support your theory. But look it works both ways: the only player Tiruin has voted in this game is me. Does that mean she's trying to silence the only players that can recognise her scumtells?

While I am flattered by being called competent, MOWE was not particularly active day 1, as you yourself noted in a previous post.  So why is she on your list of ACTIVE players?  Scientist was almost as active day one and he didn't make the list.  Smells like trying to protect a scumbuddy to me.

OK, MOWE wasn't super active, but she was super effective at lynching scum and she did keep posting (if infrequently) throughout the day, whereas Scientist forgot about the existence of Bay12 after the 22nd. I'm not sure this amounts to protecting Scientist, or Deathsword as it now is.

Over a year ago.  You have a good memory for your games, but that doesn't change the fact that this time you were wrong.  Last time you had the benefit of being a cop; this time, I can only assume that you knew alignment through being mafia.

Nope, if you actually clicked the link through you would have seen that I made that argument as a cop on Day 1, before I had any information from inspects.

 

Frankly, if a player does a suicide like that they either aren't that interested in playing the game anymore (or downright done with the game, see me in day 2 of the last beginner mafia) or they are a scum trying to play a WIFOM game with the town.

Quite possibly, though I'd previously always taken it as the kind of mistake an inexperienced player who isn't receiving advice would make. I've definitely taken it off my mental list of town reads now. I've shown you that I was under the impression before that this was a town tell. This is the same situation I was in a year ago.

 

My argument never rested on the concept of a strong voter being scummy, it rested on WHO you voted for.  It is also telling that, upon this accusation, you IMMEDIATELY switched your vote to a new player.  I probably would have unvoted you had it not been for that, but the blatant redirection set off my internal scum alarm.

I see, and, having presented my analysis to you that showed on both metrics that DP was scummier than Caz, if I had kept my vote on Caz would that have looked less suspicious? I somehow feel I'm in a no-win situation here.

In the course of replying to you, I finished off some of the analysis that I had said I was performing and it pointed to a different target. You can look at people's reads and the vote log yourself and see how I came to change my opinion. Don't get me wrong, I still think Caz is very scummy, but I've come to realise that DP is currently worse and so that's the person I should vote.

 

No, you are not the scummiest player in the game, that is reserved for DP.  If you notice, I voted for him at the beginning of the day.  But an inactive scumplayer is far less of a threat than an active one, and far better the evil we know than the evil we don't.

Ah, I would say far better that you have active players in the game that can be called on to vote and justify their votes, than inactive scum that sit back and let the town kill themselves, while still being free to send in their night kills. Pure and simple: we should be voting the scummiest players. And we should not idly let players be lyched by weak cases. I can explain and justify my actions and my votes. Can DP? Are Tiruin and Caz justifying their votes on me? Look at their cases: you'll see they have none. I'm waiting for them to explain or unvote but I'm beginning to suspect that they think they can get away with it.


SBC
Mostly, I wanted to have your reads on the other players. These won't be well informed if you don't actually read the thread though.


Cheese
 

You consider me competent?

Compared to some of the other players, definitely.

As you seem to be paying some attention: do you think Caz's vote on me has merit? What about Tiruin? We all need to be damn sure players who are lynched are lynched on strong cases.

Also why aren't you voting? The vote is the weapon of town. By passively allowing a player you don't think particularly scummy to be lynched you are saying you don't really care about catching scum.

[4maskwolf]

I'm not on a computer (stuck on phone) until Tuesday. Still haven't heard from Deathsword or Dark Pal, so best extend.


Wolf

NQT: You make a convincing argument, but there are a few points in your answer that make me uncomfortable removing the vote.  See the following:

Following up on unsettled suspicions is good. Ok:

On the flip side of that coin, a player who has played in more games with you likely has a better feel for your playstyle and can likely more easily identify your scumtells.  Despite whatever incompetence you may ascribe to the person, that, at the very least, is true.  You conveniently ignore this point in your analysis, however.

Conveniently ignore or don't take scum thought process into account because I'm not actually scum? You seem to have already made your mind up on the matter and are now twisting the evidence to support your theory. But look it works both ways: the only player Tiruin has voted in this game is me. Does that mean she's trying to silence the only players that can recognise her scumtells?

While I am flattered by being called competent, MOWE was not particularly active day 1, as you yourself noted in a previous post.  So why is she on your list of ACTIVE players?  Scientist was almost as active day one and he didn't make the list.  Smells like trying to protect a scumbuddy to me.

OK, MOWE wasn't super active, but she was super effective at lynching scum and she did keep posting (if infrequently) throughout the day, whereas Scientist forgot about the existence of Bay12 after the 22nd. I'm not sure this amounts to protecting Scientist, or Deathsword as it now is.

Over a year ago.  You have a good memory for your games, but that doesn't change the fact that this time you were wrong.  Last time you had the benefit of being a cop; this time, I can only assume that you knew alignment through being mafia.

Nope, if you actually clicked the link through you would have seen that I made that argument as a cop on Day 1, before I had any information from inspects.

 

Frankly, if a player does a suicide like that they either aren't that interested in playing the game anymore (or downright done with the game, see me in day 2 of the last beginner mafia) or they are a scum trying to play a WIFOM game with the town.

Quite possibly, though I'd previously always taken it as the kind of mistake an inexperienced player who isn't receiving advice would make. I've definitely taken it off my mental list of town reads now. I've shown you that I was under the impression before that this was a town tell. This is the same situation I was in a year ago.

 

My argument never rested on the concept of a strong voter being scummy, it rested on WHO you voted for.  It is also telling that, upon this accusation, you IMMEDIATELY switched your vote to a new player.  I probably would have unvoted you had it not been for that, but the blatant redirection set off my internal scum alarm.

I see, and, having presented my analysis to you that showed on both metrics that DP was scummier than Caz, if I had kept my vote on Caz would that have looked less suspicious? I somehow feel I'm in a no-win situation here.

In the course of replying to you, I finished off some of the analysis that I had said I was performing and it pointed to a different target. You can look at people's reads and the vote log yourself and see how I came to change my opinion. Don't get me wrong, I still think Caz is very scummy, but I've come to realise that DP is currently worse and so that's the person I should vote.

 

No, you are not the scummiest player in the game, that is reserved for DP.  If you notice, I voted for him at the beginning of the day.  But an inactive scumplayer is far less of a threat than an active one, and far better the evil we know than the evil we don't.

Ah, I would say far better that you have active players in the game that can be called on to vote and justify their votes, than inactive scum that sit back and let the town kill themselves, while still being free to send in their night kills. Pure and simple: we should be voting the scummiest players. And we should not idly let players be lyched by weak cases. I can explain and justify my actions and my votes. Can DP? Are Tiruin and Caz justifying their votes on me? Look at their cases: you'll see they have none. I'm waiting for them to explain or unvote but I'm beginning to suspect that they think they can get away with it.

Unvote NQT
I could be being massively played here, but you don't seem like scum to me.  Yes, it would have been less scummy to maintain your vote, at least in that post: it gave the impression that you were attempting to break the trend I set forth so that you could claim otherwise.  At least, that's the way I viewed it, but nothing else is sending up alarms in my head.

Deathsword
You have yet to come through on the promised reads, which is slightly suspicious (though more likely just real life getting in the way).  However, if it was the scum team who was inactive last night, there are three possibilities: MOWE, you, and SBC.  MOWE is clear for lynching IG, so if that is the case we have our scumteam in a bag.
If it was the bad who was inactive, then you, SBC, or MOWE is the bad.  None of you are off the hook for it, but the chance of lynching the serial killer is decent.  This would point to a scumteam of new players, who wouldn't realize that TDS wasn't a big threat yet.  My guess is DP and a lurker, so a one thirds chance of lynching the SK plus a one thirds chance of lynching scum makes a two thirds chance that, under these conditions, your lynching would be beneficial to the town.

[4maskwolf]

A couple more things:
Extend, we need more time for people to talk.  We also need more active players being here, but at least SBC is going to be here soon.  Speaking of which:
SBC: What do you think of the players so far?  What can you glean from the activities of last night?  Who do you believe performed the kill?

Solymr: I just saw you on BM, and I hope you will be posting here soon.  Anyways, I'd like to hear your opinions on who is scum and not scum and an answer to this: why haven't you wielded your vote yet?

Also, Persus: do the third parties count as town for the purpose of when the game ends?  So, for instance, if there were two scum, two town, the bad, and the ugly left, would the scum win or would the game continue?  This is important for how much time and leeway we have in lynches.

[Solymr]

4maskwolf
I don't want to vote NQT because he's been far more useful than the other two. I have good reasons to vote for the other two suspects but I'm not sure who is more suspicious. I'm sure I don't want a no lynch happening, or anyone of those getting away, so I'll vote in case there's a tie.

And isn't it a little late to be pressure voting?

[4maskwolf]

4maskwolf
I don't want to vote NQT because he's been far more useful than the other two. I have good reasons to vote for the other two suspects but I'm not sure who is more suspicious. I'm sure I don't want a no lynch happening, or anyone of those getting away, so I'll vote in case there's a tie.

And isn't it a little late to be pressure voting?

The Deathsword vote isn't a pressure vote, you apparently didn't read the text that followed.  If you have a problem with the logic, feel free to bring it up, but calling it a pressure vote is a misrepresentation.
What made you think it was a pressure vote, hmm?

[Solymr]

You assume that one of the possible night killers was inactive instead of just not wanting to kill anyone to mess with us. That possibility is still up.
Also your calculations of the chances of his lynching being beneficial to town is faulty. I get around 50% chances of him being SK or scum according to your reasoning, which I don't like either because your set of suspects is different to mine.

I thought it was a pressure vote because Deathsword just replaced scientist and hasn't posted much.