Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Lord Fancypantaloons]

Hello

Currently, it is painfully slow to level up soldiers in their melee skills, unless one uses the Danger Room. In my opinion, Skill books should be added. Books would allow the transfer of information and skill much better than idly standing around, doing absolutely nothing, however, books would be painfully expensive, slow to create and also one must be able to read the book to use it.

For example, a Novice Axedwarf would be able to pick up and read the "Manual of Arms: Axes" and learn quite a bit from it. After a month of study, he would become a Competent Axedwarf.

Some Dwarfs are unable to read, so an option to teach them should be available. One could set up a class room where the assigned dwarfs would learn skills that their teacher has, allowing children to be Proficient smiths, farmers, clothesmakers, etc... and not just bait for the snatchers/experimentation subjects

The teaching process could again be sped up with books. If the teacher has a book, the class learns 20% faster about a topic. If half of the dwarfs have the same book, the class learns 40% faster, and when all the dwarfs have it, the bonus becomes 50-60%

Quality should also become a factor. There is the quality for the object, but also quality of the writing within. The quality of the item increases its value, while the quality of the writing increases its value and teaching ability.

Presses should be made to copy books quickly, alternatively, the book keeper, or a scribe can copy the books by hand.

Dwarfs that can read and write would be able to write books of their own that could be copied, distributed, sold.

[Zammer990]

Certainly an interesting idea, but there should certainly be low skill caps on the gains.

I personally like the idea of a class of trainee doctors watching as the chief medical dwarf treats someone, which would be in line with the middle ages setting of DF

[Deboche]

it makes sense for professions like architect, doctor and so on but not so much for the military. Military training will probably have an overhaul anyway but if you want to do semi-legit training, use live training and training weapons

[Dirst]

it makes sense for professions like architect, doctor and so on but not so much for the military. Military training will probably have an overhaul anyway but if you want to do semi-legit training, use live training and training weapons

The fact that demonstrations are a bit slow to teach is okay, but it would be nice if it applied to more than just the military.  In particular, if children could attend they could come of age with something besides social skills.

A couple apprentices watching a master weaponsmith is appealing, but the devil is in the details.

Right now training occurs when a squad is scheduled to train, which is quite outside the normal labor assignment system.  I suppose Toady could re-skin a squad system of "classes," but it would be counter-intuitive to players because "no orders" would mean go about doing your regular job.  That's probably good enough for DF players

I have in mind two new labors, Teaching and Student.  Someone with Teaching enabled might decide to hold a class on some skill/labor that is also enabled; anyone with Student and that labor enabled would attend (or go on break because they're Dwarves).  Some queued job takes longer than normal, but it puts some skill into the students.  Getting this to work consistently would probably involve burrows and having exactly two labors enabled.  Otherwise Urist McMasterMason is going to conduct a class on Fish Dissection.

[Tacyn]

I like the idea, but I think there are a few problems with it.

First, "skillbooks" as in "Manual of Arms: Axes"  seem a bit too gamey to fit DF.

I would suggest instead that dwarfs can write something like a diary listing some or all of the things they've done.
For example, a crafter writes about how he made his masterworks/legendary, while a soldier writes about his experiances in training/combat.
When the author dies/retires, another dwarf can read the biography and passively gain experience as if he himself had done what is described in the book.
Of course, the gain and speed would have to be scaled approprietely with some cap or diminishing return from learning from second hand experience.

Thereby, a book written by a master carpenter would essentially become a carpentry skillbook, but at the same time it is a procedurally generated object with a clear origin in the world.
Creation and use of such books should have strict requirements such as the availability of paper and ink, the ability to read/write, free time and a proper place like a library.
As a bonus, this would lessen the blow if one of your crafters dies, as his successor can catch up faster and even continue writing the book.

Second, I have two problems with teaching in DF: Implementation and anachronisms.
As it is implemented, getting teaching to work is really frustrating.
How would you get teacher and students to be at the same place at the same time, when you can't even get your broker reliably to the trade depot.
This is a serious problem given the way time is abstracted in fortress mode.

Next, having teachers teach to a class is really uncommen for the period DF is based on, especially teaching specialised skills.
Having "apprentices" learn from watching another dwarf work and reading books in self-study fits better into the time period and implemetation of DF.

The only skill taught by a teacher (if at all) should be reading and writing to children and the occasional illiterate.



 

 

[sackhead]

marital arts manuals do exist historically but they are more of a pictorial reference rather than actual books. they would be ussed in conjunction with normal training. here is a Wikipedia article about it.
prehaps instead of a straight skill gain they could boost the effectiveness of normal training

[Azerty]

Libraries would come handy for skills now difficult to train such as the Health skills.

[Dirst]

Libraries would come handy for skills now difficult to train such as the Health skills.

In the real world, surgery didn't get practical until relatively modern weaponry and relatively modern sanitation combined to give the doctors lots of still-living wounded to practice upon (think US Civil War).

In Dwarf Fortress, HFS provides a similar service.

[ROFLMAOmatt]

Theres actually a mod that includes skill books and libraries, I don't know about teachers. I think its called Masterwork DF but I'm not sure. It seemed pretty cool but there was a ton of stuff on it that seemed a little too much. Also, what if slabs could be used instead of paper and ink?

[Bumber]

Libraries would come handy for skills now difficult to train such as the Health skills.

In the real world, surgery didn't get practical until relatively modern weaponry and relatively modern sanitation combined to give the doctors lots of still-living wounded to practice upon (think US Civil War).

In Dwarf Fortress, HFS provides a similar service.

I'm sure they had books on drilling holes in peoples' heads long before then.

[Dirst]

Libraries would come handy for skills now difficult to train such as the Health skills.

In the real world, surgery didn't get practical until relatively modern weaponry and relatively modern sanitation combined to give the doctors lots of still-living wounded to practice upon (think US Civil War).

In Dwarf Fortress, HFS provides a similar service.

I'm sure they had books on drilling holes in peoples' heads long before then.

Yes, the books have been around since antiquity.  Didn't help much until a steady stream of practice-patients arrived to allow massive trial-and-error learning.  Afterwards medical books were truly useful.

My point is that DF is set in a pre-industrial era and it is entirely reasonable for Toady (or a modder) to decide either way whether enough knowledge exists that it can be usefully distilled into books.  In any case, I don't like the idea of becoming an expert by reading about something (which seems to be the current state for necromancy).

[ColdOneK]

I approve of the idea of a dwarven education system.

Especially for children - that grow up to become haulers currently.

The military training isn't that bad though - marksdwarves level fastest obviously, witch is realistic. How hard can it be to point and shoot? Come on.

However, if you set your military up right, they'll start sparring way more often.
Assign specific weapon types to them so they don't randomly pick up garbage or w/e other stupid dwarf thing...

Urist Mc Orangeppeel
Custom Uniform
ECT
ECT
ECT
ECT
Shield
Battle Axe

To do so, go to the military screen, and press e for equipment - scroll through each squad member and remove indiv choice melee, then press "W" and select a weapon class

if they start preferring something stupid, just add
Steel Battle Axe or Candy Battle Axe
e for equipment, scroll to dwarf, scroll down to weap class and press "M", and select your best material
t1 - iron for edge (axe - sword - spear)
t1 - silver for blunt (mace - warhammer)
t2 - steel is better for both (though it should be near equal to silver for blunt, some fb are made of metal, and silver is considered inferior metal then iron or bronze)
t3 - candy is best for edge - terrible for blunt
I usually get legendaries - from nothing - in around 3 years of near constant training - as legendaries are almost unkillable in decent gear, this seems really acceptable imho
The slowest thing to train is armor class - even as legendaries with 20+ kill lists, they might be lvl 6 in armor class, but w/e not that important

[callisto8413]

I can see books being used by the bookkeeper, broker, and a few Nobles, but using them as skill books seems like we are leaving DF and getting into Skyrim or some other fantasy world.

I like how DF is (somewhat) realistic when it comes to most things.  As for education and teachers, it would be nice if the Duchesss I have spent time teaching her brats...er..children some skills and it would be nice if we could assign older Dwarfs or wounded Dwarfs into teaching roles (to teach the common children social skills for example).  At a certain age they could join Guilds to follow around miners, woodcutters, and so on to learn rusty labor skills.  Or just be released from school to follow their parents.

[Bumber]

I can see books being used by the bookkeeper, broker, and a few Nobles, but using them as skill books seems like we are leaving DF and getting into Skyrim or some other fantasy world.

I guess you've never used a manual or textbook before?

Dwarves should be able to get at least a little bit of skill from reading a book. It might be slower, but useful for when Urist McMedicalStudent has nobody to practice on, to prevent getting rusty.

[Helari]

You can learn practical skills through pictures and words. There is no guarantee that you wont make a mistake in practice though.