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[Execute/Dumbo.exe]

Hey, I appreciate you pointing out potential problems, and I realise it's a problem for the Weevil degenerators, but I don't really know how to fix that problem.
Anyway, with a design like that, could you ballpark the price for me?

[Parisbre56]

Ah, so that was unintentional?

What do planets currently do with their sewage, trash and industrial waste?

Currently?  I imagine they're just dumping it wherever there's room, alongside the bodies.  Most worlds probably recycled with matter conversion automanips, and after the Lurker... well, everything got a lot shittier.

No, wait, is that a pun? Maybe it's something else? Like when that CSI guy puts on his glasses and says "YEAAAAAH!"? I don't remember. Too tired.

[Egan_BW]

Pretty sure YEAAAAAH is a pun.

[syvarris]

Oh, yes that was intentional.  I forgot about it because I was writing stuff pretty quick.

[TheBiggerFish]

That was a rather crappy pun.

[Empiricist]

7c. Can a Pocket Dimension feed directly into a Matter Saver cartridge?

7c.Uh.  I'm not sure what you mean, but it sounds extremely dangerous.  I invite you to try it yourself, though.  You're in M26; you can afford it.

Basically, can I arrange a Pocket Dimension Exit and Matter Saver Cartridge so that stuff that exits is immediately saved?

[Unholy_Pariah]

Ooh I wanna get in on the monoblade market.
I've got two designs.

Number 1 is a halberd.
or more specifically a profesional high flex golf club with a heavy iron club head that contains the field projector.
It uses the immense G-forces generated by the flex of the shaft as the heavy iron weight snaps forward when swung, and the weight of the club head itself, to force the blade to cleave through whatever its swung at.

The second is a curved sword.
Basically this one is gonna be similar to a kilij.
Its got a blade that continues straight for two thirds of its length, the curves back at a 35° angle for the rest.
now behind this is gonna be a curved metal rod with a heavy metal bulb on the end reminiscent of one of those plastic tennis ball throwers.
it operates on the same principle as the weapon above.

I'd prefer you consolidate your posts.  And by that I mean I might ignore all posts aside from the first, if multiposting gets common.

Halberd is 3t, +0 dex, +1/2(?) unc.  Much easier to use than the sword since you have a very visible weight to hit the target with.  Much easier to break, too, and can't do as much damage since it's harder to force the massive metal weight through the target.

I remember watching some videos of a guy just hacking a pig to pieces with a kilij.  I dunno if he was just really strong or if the design helped out, but it was impressive all the same.  4t in any case, and has the same flaws/benefits as the halberd.  Price increase is because you have to have multiple projectors to get that angle in the blade.

yeah sorry about the segregation, ill try to reign that in.

Hmm... that doesnt seem right. The point of these weapons is to increase the damage dealt since they rely on user strength.

Halberd and Kilij modification
What if we projected the forceblade out of the front of the club heads, but have the two thirds or three quarters of the blades extending outward past them.
That way you just need to swing the club directly in front of your opponent and the weight doesnt get in the way of the cleaving action, but if they do get hit by it they still take some damage.

also is the second field emitter on the kilij really necessary? i thought the shape mimicked that of the anchor material.
okay dokey, at Nik's behest its time for more armor tinkering.
possibly for warplate inclusion, possibly standalone.

Idea #1, Heavy ablative armor.
okay the idea here is we take one of the heavy duty battle plate layers and replace it with hexbug lattice, not a hexbug plate.
Now this here anti-kinetic lattice should still be reasonably thick, not an aerogel nano-lattice, and we are gonna fill it with hexplate or hexsand or whatever we decided to call it.
this should allow for it to easily shrug off attacks from any single weapon type and remove the instant vulnerabilty to certain weapons we suffer when the arnors surface layer is breached.

idea #2, probably gonna need piecewise help on this one.
We have heat eating meta-crystals and stock battleplate layers that are specifically desinged to disperse heat over a wide area.
How effective would it be to line one of the lower layers of this material with a number of small cryotic crystals?

Alternatively, we have nigh unbreakable hexbug armor that melts faster than an australian icecream,
how effective would it be to stud it with cryotic crystals and place a metal sheet over the top of it that has high thermal resistance?
alternatively do we have any heatproof impact gel?

[AoshimaMichio]

Why not me too?

Let's finalize Chem Thrower extra chems.
1. Doomsday, 10 uses canister.
2. Haebi acid, 10 uses canister. Perhaps separate one time purchase of 1 token forcefield tubing to prevent it melting the weapon?

1.I don't remember exactly how effective Doomsday is, and I don't feel like searching.  I think it was like a megavirus or something?
2.Hmm.  We have Haebi flesh and brain, so there's no reason for this to be expensive.  1t, plus an extra 2t initially for the forcefield cladding, because forcefields are expensive.  Note that this makes the barrel explosive, and the gun will explode if dropped in its acid.

Doomsday is liquid that liquefies organic matter on contact. It is listed on armory, you lazy bastard, but it was never used. Anyway, quote from Limbo:

Noticing business set up by Eddie Ulrich establishes competing business line: Meditation. Less you move, less our precious and limited resources you are burning. More you train your mind, better you can resist immaterial alien reproductive organs being forcefully inserted into your brain.

While I meditate I think about expanding ammo variety for Universal Chem Thrower.

• Doomsday. Is this gaseous or liquid substance? If fitted for standard thrower canister would it still be 1 token per canister?
  
• The Ram. Likewise price check. Does this thing need special strength canisters?
  
• Gauss Rifle seems to have "melter" rounds. "Filled with nasty chemichals, this will ruin the day of everyone not wearing chem-off." Is this viable for chem thrower?
  
• Likewise "Vit-O-Phage", Armory Master's mystery coctail of horrible death. What type of chemical is used there?
  
• Haebi acid, should we be able to produce it by now or in near future.
  

You would basically spray it in a sort of fluid or mist but would turn to gas fairly quickly. Depends on the volume of the canister
It would need a special coating, but thats it. Again, volume of the canister.
Eh, it would basically be the same thing as ram.
I forget.
Yes. Please speak to the nearest man with a haebi arm for an unlimited supply.

If he asks you to jerk his arm off, he may be unreliable.

How about using chem-off to protect against acid instead of forcefields?

[Nikitian]

@syvarris Yeah, I think going for the "costs" price is the best approach here. The Council is out there for balancing anyway, and Piecewise's main function in pricing was to provide the base cost price (which could be further tweaked a little, but not too much). "God help us, it's a cheap and distressingly effective weapon" was said for a reason, after all. 

I assume that my questions were also included in the pm, so I will wait for its results as well. Mostly because it'd give both you and me the OOC GenKnow basis for working with the designs to come.

Anyway, then I'll assume Sharksuit 1.5 and Milno-plate brain-casing (right, interference with braincase modifications, as usual) are finalised, and ask the Council on the matter of Emergency Wireline price (free or not free) and MCP 1.1 chassis upgrade price (whether or not those other things qualify as free).

^{_{In loving memory of Simulacrus Ferratum-Inanis. Sleep peacefully, my dear Queen of VR addicts.}}

• Brisant-compatibility
  Take Hand Cannon ammo types. Take Arranger ammo types. Take gauss rifle special ammo types (G-shells mostly - whatever are left in the stocks, but also Organgrinders and other appropriate stuff). Take all the assorted grenades in the armory that aren't Brisant-compatible.
  Make them Brisant-compatible.
  (For reference, Brisant's calibre is 40mm 50mm, just checked.)
• Brisant 1.5 & variants
  First, let's revamp the Brisant slightly with the modern tech advances. I am aiming at bringing the price down to 2 tokens or, if impossible, slightly upgrading the capabilities without increasing the cost. So: advanced generators (yeah, we do have them) for cheaper energy supply; hexplate (hexsand?) barrel coating for decreased barrel/coil wear from heat and friction (and possibly better precision); cheaper wiring/capacitors; anything else you, Tinker assistance or my character can think of but I cannot (by all means, roll Intelligence, if you wish).
  Second, firing approaches: Let's settle this question once and for all. Make two Brisant variants available: One with a bipod and slightly longer barrel (for greater precision; I believe this is how the original Brisant was meant to be), one more "cut down"/"carbine" variant that has a bit less precision, but can be more easily fired on the move/from the hip/etc. Both are intended to have identical price of 2-tokens (if the first paragraph succeeded).
  (Per discussion.)
  Oh, and let's throw in the timer/explosion delay function into the gun/grenade controls. The grenades already have enough the electronics, the matter is about adding a few more buttons and several lines of code.
• Antimatter dawn
  What's with trapping antimatter? I assume ER tech knows how to do that, and can do so cheaply (well, far more cheaply than us)?
  (Consider utilizing the super-conductive materials we have discovered, for example, or stuff like that. Or wait, just forcefields should work too, though not sure how cheap that would be, compared to other approaches.)
  IF it can be used (and I don't see reasons why it cannot, given the advanced ER state), let's consider its use for:
  Propulsion (by tiny microblasts)
  Large-scale explosives (cheaper, bigger and badder "nukes")
  Small-scale explosives (extra-powerful grenades and explosive ammo)
• Grenade fun
  Let's tinker some new Brisant grenades, shall we?..
  (Note that, by tradition, grenades are sold in 3-packs, so if relevant, please consider the split-token effective price this convention enables - i.e. 1/3, 2/3, 4/3 etc.)
  
  • Crystalline Frag grenade, designed to detonate and spray everything with crystal-seeds in the radius. Note that apparently it can already push out the crystal-seeds somehow, or "explode" into fragments on occasion, so this might be as easy as slightly modifying the magazine of the weapon.
    (Aiming for default 1-token 3-pack.)
  • EMP grenade 2.0 - Upgraded with the modern tech advances, including the blueshard power supply (which should cut the cost drastically).
    (Aiming for somewhere between 1-token grenade and default 1-token 3-pack)
  • PSL AP Frag grenade, since you mentioned it yourself.
    (No idea about the price.)
  • Antimatter grenades - (if the tech is available, per above point) in two variants: "Hey, Not Too Rough" 0,1 mcg payload; "Ultra-violence" 11 mcg payload. Probably contained in other ways than magnetic chamber, because of the gauss propulsion of Brisant - unless it can be circumvented somehow (I don't know, would Faraday Cage even work here? Maybe a specialised variant?..).
    (No idea about the price, but please do refer to its production cost, not its "balanced price". We have the Council for that. First and foremost I want to know if it is even economically viable.)
  • Spray bomb B-type - take Doomsday/Organgrinder/Vit-O-Phage, put under (some) pressure, rig the container with a little explosives for better spread. Bonus points if using the force fields is economical here.
    (Aiming for default 1-token 3-pack or 2-token 3-pack)
  • Spray bomb N-type - same as above, but put the Ram inside instead. N for Necrochemistry, of course.
  • Spray bomb P-type - same as above, but put the Haebi acid inside instead. Will likely require forcefields, so greater price, but also greater destruction.
  • Gas bombs - same general design as above, but adapt for gaseous substances instead. For a test variant, let's go with paralysis gas.
  (Aoshima, great thanks for all the chemicals links!)
  

[Unholy_Pariah]

Hmm.. forcefields have this brilliant side effect of being highly explosive if handled improperly.

perhaps I should tinker up some pure forcefield rounds of differing price and volatility?

[Nikitian]

Hmm.  We have Haebi flesh and brain, so there's no reason for this to be expensive.  1t, plus an extra 2t initially for the forcefield cladding, because forcefields are expensive.  Note that this makes the barrel explosive, and the gun will explode if dropped in its acid.

Remember that tokens are not only a measure of resources needed to build something. They're also a measure of trust. Do you really want to give someone the ability to melt an Avatar of War for 3 tokens? And to make holes in almost anything for one token? Without suffering the results of a nuclear explosion?

Yeah, because if that's the weapon our scientific advancement have thrust into our hands, I would rather have it be used as much as possible. Remember, item prices don't affect just the player characters, they are also vaguely relevant to how much it costs to arm an NPC trooper. As such, I do want the very best weapons for our footsoldiers.
(But, for the record, I support the notion of armoring the canister. Just in case. And because we know who is going to use it.
And, honestly, Haebi-acid is not that all-destroying. I mean, if we clad our Avatars in forcefield armor, they would be invulnerable to it - as probably are quite a few alien entities out there. No need to complicate things beyond what they are.)

Why dont you use a forcefield to contain your antimatter?

forcefields are not made of matter.
They also have this brilliant side effect of being highly explosive in their own right.

perhaps I should tinker up some pure forcefield rounds of differing price and volatility?

I, uh, list that as one of the options, I believe?.. In the dedicated antimatter tinkering section.

As for forcefield explosives - the problem with them is that regular explosives are simply more efficient/economical (the idea was brought early on). It's when the "containment" part gets added to the equation that they begin to rival mere conventional explosives.

[Unholy_Pariah]

yeah I literally saw it just before you posted and was in the process of editing it out.
didnt read it the first time, just saw non magnetic containment in the grenade section.

still, forcefield nukes could have other tactical applications that make up for the reduced yield.

like say... pencil thin super armor piercing rounds?
for busting through battleplate and the like.

also the yield is governed by the material I I recall,
so you could theoretically buy a super weak material that grants extraordinary yield pretty cheaply, it just wouldnt be a very large field.

[Parisbre56]

@Nik: This isn't a very convincing argument. If there was a strategy game running parallel to ER (which, to my knowledge, there isn't) then I'm certain things would be balanced differently in it.

Also not agreeing with the second argument. Just because some aliens are invincible doesn't mean our weapons should cost nothing. Just because protection is available from a weapon with a single form of armor (two if Chem-off does anything to it) doesn't make them any less potent to other kind of armor. I mean, look at hexplate. It eats lasers and plasma. Do we have any avatar-sized cutting lasers available for 6 tokens?

I'm not saying it should be 20 tokens a can or something. After all, it might be powerful, but it has a worse range than the plasma projector. But I think it could stand to be a token or two more expensive. You know, a price that makes it something more special, not something you'd waste like it's nothing.

Also:

Take Hand Cannon ammo types. Take Arranger ammo types. Take gauss rifle special ammo types (G-shells mostly - whatever are left in the stocks, but also Organgrinders and other appropriate stuff). Take all the assorted grenades in the armory that aren't Brisant-compatible.
Make them Brisant-compatible.

While I agree with the rest of this idea (having some sort of unified ammo type list that only changes its size) I'm pretty sure you can't do that with the arranger. The arranger doesn't fire bullets. It's more like a magic wand. It rearranges the matter in the cartridge so that it projects an effect. To make t the casing Brittany compatible, you'd have to modify the Brisant and every other weapon to be able to rearrange the matter in them and contain whatever effect they unleash. Or make the arranger bullets self-contained, which would make the arranger useless and the casings more expensive (although they would make for some fun grenades. At least, that's how I understand it.

[Parisbre56]

Hey, Syv, assuming you get the answer you're waiting for from piecewise, could you give me an estimate about what you think a good price for battlesuit sized arranger, battlesuit sized light shield and battlesuit sized light sphere projector? I'm especially interested in those last two. I think they could have very interesting uses that fit with my playstyle.

[Nikitian]

@Paris Ah, for some reason I was under impression that Arranger-ammo were basically space-magic grenades of a big caliber. Yeah, you are right - I will edit that bit out now.


And I don't have anything against increasing the cost a token or two (in theory) - that's exactly the role of the Council, after all, if I understand it correctly. I am just against giving it an unrealistically high price just because it is that good (and then sticking to that price as the real "production cost" price, which is how the system currently works).

If there was an alternative system, where the production cost was decoupled from the market item price, and actually known and referenced (and the item price might be reviewed afterwards, with real the production cost in mind and in light of other new Armory additions) - such opposition would be unnecessary. But, as currently the link between the "production cost" and "item price" is inviolable and regularly quoted upon (when, say, similar items are designed), concerns about preserving the price close to the production cost need to be voiced to ensure the system works properly.

(If you wish to continue this discussion, I am open to it, but I'd suggest we move it to the Hephaestus OOC thread.)