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Author Topic: V.4h Becordobar - Mastermind Dwarf Challenge  (Read 26664 times)

Dawnofdarkness

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Re: V.4h Becordobar - Mastermind Dwarf Challenge
« Reply #150 on: February 28, 2014, 12:53:34 pm »

Im still slightly surprised I haven't died yet with my apparent suicide attempts.
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If Toady implements it, we can kill elves with it.

mahrgell

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Re: V.4h Becordobar - Mastermind Dwarf Challenge
« Reply #151 on: March 02, 2014, 12:49:56 pm »

Can you give me a pointer at which thread to look at for more info/guides on weaponizing minecarts?

So far, my only knowledge of them is on how to make a quantum stockpile.

Uhhh...
There are quite a few sources, but mostly it is up to your own creativity.
Probably the article I used most is quite simple:
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Minecart

And in general almost all kinds of traps only consists out of very few things:
a) impulse ramps
your bread and butter... learn how to use them, as they will do everything for you and have some very surprising (and not documented) properties...
b) hatch covers/draw bridges
Imho the best minecart control... lever operated hatches can launch mine carts into the system. To shut down the system, I usually use drawbridges at corners, that when opened, let the cart derail into some minecart catcher
c) rollers
I don't use these, as they can usually be replaced with some clever impulseramp usage... But they have some unique advantages to simplify things, but also to do some very tricky construction (like turning around on a track)



In general you can decide between 3 types of mine cart defenses, imho...
a) minecart grinders
Like the Heartgrinder and the Seesaw, the idea is to either hit enemies with a very fast racing cart (like in the Heartgrinder), which can be achieved by stacking a lot of impulse ramps, or very often (as in the Seesaw), which is much simpler, as it requires only a short track (actually turning it off is the more difficult part :D)
b) shotguns
Demonstrated here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu-j8TsYEsQ
TinyPirate has some nice ideas, but imho makes stuff way too difficult and technical. Similar can be achieved much easier.
Still, the idea is simple... fill minecart with items... bring it to high speed... stop it suddenly... items shoot in the enemies face... profit
Originally I wanted to build a shotgun using slag bars... sadly I didn't find to way to load slag bars (as they can't be stockpiled) so I abandoned the idea, as normal shotguns are imho fairly inefficient and tedious... You have to manually reload them after every use, and their killing potential is limited against bigger forces...
c) liquid guns
Prime example: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=119831.0
This is similar to what will be done with the Bloodshower...
They are pretty much shotguns with much better ammo (liquid 'boulders' are heavier then almost any stone) that can be run on repeat as they require no manual reload... So in general... super awesome!

mahrgell

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Re: V.4h Becordobar - Mastermind Dwarf Challenge
« Reply #152 on: March 02, 2014, 12:52:08 pm »

@SHadow... Well... couldn't avoid it :( But compared to the about 30 miners I have already lost, bone carvers are certainly on the safe side ^^

@dawnofdarkness Super legendary everything soldiers are usually not killable by normal means... it requires some special attack types like several webs, or breath/syndrome attacks usually.... But weapons... lol

mahrgell

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Re: V.4h Becordobar - Mastermind Dwarf Challenge
« Reply #153 on: March 02, 2014, 01:40:06 pm »

Okay... I now made a few quick tests on the issue... Neither idea I have to solve the problem is working... And no, there is no option of using less carts... I'm seriously out of ideas. Not sure how to continue :(

Meph

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Re: V.4h Becordobar - Mastermind Dwarf Challenge
« Reply #154 on: March 03, 2014, 01:05:27 am »

Okay... I now made a few quick tests on the issue... Neither idea I have to solve the problem is working... And no, there is no option of using less carts... I'm seriously out of ideas. Not sure how to continue :(
What issue, what problem? Anything mod related I could fix?
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mahrgell

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Re: V.4h Becordobar - Mastermind Dwarf Challenge
« Reply #155 on: March 03, 2014, 04:23:11 am »

No, the issue with the minecarts getting stuck... I made some testarea, to test the issue further, and it just seems so horriby bugged, that there is nothing to be done...
- A straight dropdown from the hatch gets the carts stuck floating in the air on top of the (opened) hatch
- a ramp below gets the minecart down, but then it gets stuck there...
I thought if I add further ramps below, I could solve the problem... But nope... it always gets stuck on the first one... so frustrating -.-
I have 2 more ideas how to make things work... Will probably try them this week... but I'm quite annoyed right now

Meph

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Re: V.4h Becordobar - Mastermind Dwarf Challenge
« Reply #156 on: March 03, 2014, 04:38:50 am »

I thought the seesaw was working perfectly? (I admit, I havent been reading everything here, did you try to build another one?)
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::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
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mahrgell

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Re: V.4h Becordobar - Mastermind Dwarf Challenge
« Reply #157 on: March 03, 2014, 09:24:37 am »

The seesaw yes, but my new project, which has quite a huge investment already is failing for totally obscure reasons... aka minecarts getting stuck midair, miraculously held by some minecart above/behind them

Tenderroast

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Re: V.4h Becordobar - Mastermind Dwarf Challenge
« Reply #158 on: March 03, 2014, 11:30:14 pm »

Is there some way to stagger the launch? maybe use multiple hatches per line, but give them a couple squares of buffer?
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mahrgell

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Re: V.4h Becordobar - Mastermind Dwarf Challenge
« Reply #159 on: March 04, 2014, 04:10:49 pm »

Similar, yes... The difference in this design it, that there is no launch track, the carts are always in the cycle, but the hatch is blocking their path, when the system is turned off.
But what I was thinking is, that maybe If I relocate the place where their path is blocked... I can cause them to spread out a bit (as they will block each other in a different place around the track, where it does not cause problems, but then have some distance between each other)
well... Maybe I even try that tonight...

mahrgell

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Re: V.4h Becordobar - Mastermind Dwarf Challenge
« Reply #160 on: March 05, 2014, 06:32:23 am »

short result of above mentioned tests: failed
long result: Things are even worse then I had initially thought. Not only the dropdown, but even more parts of the track can go completely nuts, if carts get too close to each other. This kills any hope combining
a) a magmagun without rollers
b) more then 2 carts per lane
together.

edit: Unlike before, I made all these tests via savescumming. This was the first time in those two fortresses, but I felt, it would be rather tedious to see 2 years of nothing but reconstruction and cursing this shit... And until now I usually know approximately what I was doing... well... this time I'm just so clueless.

mahrgell

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Re: V.4h Becordobar - Mastermind Dwarf Challenge
« Reply #161 on: March 05, 2014, 10:26:13 am »

enough talk... back to updates...

2nd Hematite
Looks like something got into the Seesaw... Meh..


6th Hematite
After a lot of argueing it was decided, that we will try to run the Bloodshower with only 2 carts per lane. This will greatly reduce efficiency compared to the original plans, but maybe it works, at least?

12th Hematite
Bloodshower test #2.3 (two carts per lane):
Result: success
Details:
for now all lanes are working as expected
Conclusion:
We had to try, if even with some of the changes happening, the system works as intended. We will now progress towards the magmatests.

14th Hematite
The next phase has been started.



16th Hematite
To sum it up: FRUSTRATING
We had started the magmaspawning with the Magmalings behind closed floorgates, bars and fortifications...
After one day of spawning magma the floodgates were opened... And promptly the Magmaling swam through the bars and the fortifications and dropped down... Still... the magmapool is filling somehow... It may work, even though it is just annoying as hell.

22nd Hematite
Everyone has been ordered inside.

24th Hematite
The moment of truth....

26th Hematite
Bloodshower test #4.1 (two carts per lane, with magma):
Result: total failure
Details:
the carts are unable to get out of the magmapit
Conclusion:
Original studies had told us, the carts would be able to bounce each other out of the magma pit. Those reports have been proven wrong. We have hardly any idea how to salvage the situation.

3rd Malachite
Our attempt to maybe bounce the carts out of the magma with another set of carts has failed. Well... it would have been too nice, if it worked.

9th Malachite
A limestone table artifact. Yeah... whatever...

15th Galena
Time passed by so fast, while our masons continued working on our bastion ring. And we just noticed, that the quick side entrance to the fortress is still open. Puh... lucky that there were no early invaders...

20th Galena
Our masons spotted an Orcambush from the rooftops... And a closer look at our trapcorridor showed, that there were quite a number of corpses... Looks like there are some Orcs around, and even though half a dozen had already died right in front of our door, we hadn't noticed them until now... Awesome...

1st Limestone
The Seesaw took down a few ore Orcs, but overall nothing happened. A few masons refused to work, due to the Orc sightings, but in general the disturbances were barely noticable. We continue the works on the Fortifications, and once this is done... Well... It will be time for the final plan... Time for revenge.

2nd Timber
Time went by with nothing but routine work. Or should we call it preparations?
But today...

This was not intended. Actually it happened during stripmining out lowest rock floor (all other rockfloors are already completely(every single tile) mined out)

14th Timber
Yet again the dwarven caravan arrived. Will they make it this time?


16th Timber
They are in!!! They all arrived at the depot. We have to lower the bridge to the depot, while raising the outer bridge!!!

17th Timber
Oups... We smashed two caravan guards, when we lowered the inner bridge. Shit happens...

21st Timber
While everyone is busy hauling goods to the depot, some Goblins appeared outside. As if we would care...

1st Moonstone
The Goblins were annihilated by the Seesaw without us doing anything...
Meanwhile most preparations were done, the bastions only needed roofs. Some new stairs were also constructed in the mined out area, and the haulers had almost finished bringing all the goods to the depot... It looked like we were ready...


OOC: I abandoned the idea of the Bloodshower... Sadly I see no way to realize it. :( But it still is a nice piece of architecture :D

mahrgell

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Re: V.4h Becordobar - Mastermind Dwarf Challenge
« Reply #162 on: March 05, 2014, 05:21:13 pm »

4th Moonstone
While inspecting the trade goods I found something... It seems like some dwarf lack the necessary respect towards their baron....


7th Moonstone
We bought two cages... Looks like we can find some alternative use for the Bloodshower...

12th Moonstone
We are getting closer and closer...


21st Moonstone
More news from the miners...


25th Moonstone
It's done!!! We found it.... But we have more plans...


7th Opal
The Bloodshower has now some new tools... Not as originally intended, but they will do...


24th Opal
The miners just reported, they had dug out the shaft I told them, in order to look for adamantine. Somehow they didn't think, that it would be useful to tell me, that they actually dug through an adamantine vein....


28th Opal
We have started mining the adamantine. As it is a surprisingly large vein, we have also started making it into strands and wafers... It will make some nice equipment for the militia.

4th Obsidian
Some guy in the forge area snapped... Guess he didnt get what he needed for his artifact... Now he is trying to attack some furnace workers.. We have to put him down...


13th Obsidian
An ambush! A whole zoo! Without riders... You must be kidding me...


15th Obsidian
The Drow are behind this... But they are not attacking us, because they are busy fighting... Wit an animated iron axe... Yeah, the are fighting for 3 days now... 50 attackers vs one animated axe...
OOC: The combat log shows 45 (!!!!!!) pages right now for the axe

16th Obsidian
Meanwhile dawnofdarkness received a new weapon.

Hope she puts it to good use... Like her old one...

(70 named, 49 unnamed)

19th Obsidian
We noticed, the Drow are led by a very special guest...

And she is completely unarmed... and isolated from the rest... While the zoo and the  Drow mainforce are busy fooling around with the hellfire turrets, his highness is standing right next to the shortcut bridge... We may....


20th Obsidian
AHHHHHHHHHHH ColdBones completely misinterpreted some orders...

And is almost in the Bloodshower, now facing some Drow there. Well... If we are in close combat anyway, we can also lower the bridge... and take down the queen... Maybe this causes the attackers to flee, before they slaughter poor ColdBones.

21st Obsidian
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

ColdBones.... There was no way to save him, when he faced three Drow and their mounts... He just wasn't made for close combat... It was the third time he faced death... but this time he lost. Dawnofdarkness and Cpt Crunchy were charging out to revenge their fallen brother...
Cpt Crunchy challenged the High priestess to a leaders duel, but the fight wasn't very fair...

And now the hunt began....

24th Obsidian
In their rampage there was no holding them... They slaughtered the Drow mercilessly, as they had killed ColdBones...


1st Granite
The Drow are dead or gone, but so is ColdBones. Another sad winter. He never had it easy... We had actually spend most of the year to give him more fortified positions to shoot from, and now some missunderstanding with those positions cost him his life... Well... It is too late now. Those bastions will always remembers us of him.

(it is a ring around the whole fortress, with 8 bastions, one in each main direction, under it, here is just the north east corner of the fortress)

OOC:
The cause for his weird trip was, that he didn't try to stand inside the bastion, but outside, on top of the entrance to the Bloodshower... That's why I usually built those shooting positions free floating... But here some architecture was in the way -.-

CptCrunchy

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Re: V.4h Becordobar - Mastermind Dwarf Challenge
« Reply #163 on: March 05, 2014, 05:40:57 pm »

RIP Coldbones, may deep drow rot in their Underdark
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mahrgell

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Re: V.4h Becordobar - Mastermind Dwarf Challenge
« Reply #164 on: March 05, 2014, 06:48:43 pm »

as I updated the startpost:

Quote
The numbers given here are lower then in the story for the simple reason that legendsmode ignores mounts. But almost every attacker rides something, and quite often the mounts are as dangerous as the riders...
Yes, nothing happened in those two seasons :P
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