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Author Topic: Managing the military  (Read 1378 times)

MerkerBenson

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Managing the military
« on: February 02, 2014, 06:25:04 am »

Yo,
I'm new to DF but I'm slowly learning my way up the fortress survivability ladder. I've figured out how to make a self-sufficient fortress in terms of food and water and turn out a profit as well, mostly thanks to the wiki and this guy's informative LPs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM5XISg8ZDQ&list=PLH-huzMEgGWDzDJ_7qO1zOQnscx5YI6ZP

Now, either I'm really thick or my dwarfs simply don't like to be military but I'm having huge issues with the military organization. So here goes:

1) I have yet to find any metal so I got most of the armors and weapons from the incredibly frequent goblin ambushes that seem to come with every caravan and butcher it. Now there are full armor suits littering the landscape but my freaking soldiers always remember to go "pick up their equipment" right in the middle of the battle or at best just before engaging the enemy. I've also tried to forbid the items in question, it doesn't make the dorfs stop, they go straight in the arrow rain of the enemy just to get their iron helm. The squads are set to train every month and I manually set their armor and equipment, but they still don't go get it when there's peace, even if the equipment is in my fort, what gives? Some do seem to eventually get their stuff, but most run into battle with silk clothes, a shield and fortunately a weapon. My casualty rate is 10-15 dwarfs for every year of goblin ambushes, even with the caravan support. Fortunately migrants are in large numbers so I keep the pop at around 50-60 muppets.

2) Most of the caravans get butchered when they arrive so the armors and weapons are all over the place. I've claimed them all repeatedly and I have at least 20-30 dwarfs on hauling duty but they don't pick up the stuff. I've set armor and weapon stockpiles even, and some pieces of equipment are in the courtyard of my fort(after some invaders got through the walls). They never pick it up, or occasionally get the random helm but that's it. They get most of the stuff from the map though, especially bodies.

3) Since I can't get a single dwarf in full armor(do they have allergy to metal or what? tried auto-equip and manual equip, nothing) I can't use the danger room to quick train them. I understand a good training setup is squads of 2-3 dwarfs. Any good training room setup? What about marksdwarfs, they never seem to use the ranges I set up for them...

4) My marksdwarfs attack the enemy by ....bashing them with their crossbows... In the ammunition use menu do the C and T have to be lit up or off? I made some quivers for them and all..now I have no more marksdwarfs because they tried to take on heavily armed and skilled goblin lashers and swordsgoblins

5) How do I set up patrol routes? How do I set up patrol routes and keep up the training at the same time? No option for multiple orders for the same squad on the same month. Atm I've only got enough military-capable people for 1 squad.

6) Any way to make my dwarfs retreat? I tried to give them station order but my militia commander with a baby in one hand and her armor 50km away still charged head on at the army of goblins, tossed the baby at them and the tossed herself at them since she also had no weapon. I kept giving burrow and station orders but she never retreated...

7) Any way to keep my squads in formation? They keep charging all randomly or when I mobilize them quickly they end up with the newest recruits charging first and getting killed....

8.) Any way to repair dented armor and clothes? Or do I just melt and rebuild?

9) Off-topic but it's frustrating now: I can't seem to find freaking metal on the map, even with a proper map choice (no aquifer, shallow metals, deep metals, flux stone-first 10 z levels FULL of chalk flux stone, gems, gold, silver and platinum). Any point in continuing this? Is there a z level for the deep metals?

10) are siege engines of any use?

Cheers
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 06:37:14 am by MerkerBenson »
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Togre

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Re: Managing the military
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2014, 07:41:52 am »

Military has some glitches.  I struggle to get it working smoothly myself.  Some of it is me, others not.

Here are some of the easy answers. Hopefully someone else can answer more fully than I can.

1.  In the military menu, have the dwarfs (r)eplace civilian clothes.  This should keep them in armor all the time.

4.  Common problem.  Make sure you have tons of bolts and quivers.  C is combat T is training.  I have them both lit and increase them some.  Might want to save metal bolts for combat.

6 &7.  Nope.  They are bearded little berserkers.  The best way to manage this is control their line of sight.  Have them hide behind a wall and jump enemies when they get near.

8.  Clothes eventually rot.  Armor never wears out.

10. Not really.  They are crewed by civilians who panic if they see foes.

Traps and walls can be good options to thin out your enemies or control when and where you fight them.  Good luck!  Have !FUN!
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"Hey guys, you know how I've been repeatedly injuring you over and over again for the purpose of training up a team of high skilled doctors? Yeah well we didn't actually need to do that."

vanatteveldt

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Re: Managing the military
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2014, 07:53:29 am »

1) I think the biggest problem might be that the squads are not activated. Go to (m)ilitary, (a)lerts, scroll to 'active/training', and make sure all squads are selected there
EDIT ninja'd. Only set to replace clothes if you are absolutely sure that you have enough clothes/armor. You don't want your axedwarf to become depressed because he is not wearing any pants!

After you've done that, make sure that they are training non-stop, even with training weapons and no armor. Also make sure they have shields, wood or leather is fine.

2) Do you have any burrows set? Are you sure that the stockpile accepts weapons/armor and is not full? Have you tried claiming with (d)esignate, (b), (c)laim? (iirc)

3) never used danger rooms, not needed imho

4) Yeah, marksdwarfs are a little weird. Make sure that you have way more ammo than ever needed, enough quivers, and don't bother trying to have different combat and training arrows

5) no clue, never used

6) nope, they're berserkers

7) nope, the're berserkers

8) armor never wears I think, clothing just needs to be replaced every X years, and is unrelated to combat

9) deep levels can be anywhere below, even at -100. If you want to make sure and don't mind cheating a bit, you can run dfhack prospect all. Otherwise, just get digging. I normally dig a staircase all the way down with side eploratory tunnels in a cross from the stairway to all map edges every 5 or so z-levels. Not guaranteed to find anything but normally if a metal is there it is fairly abundant.

10) Nope, sorry!
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sirdave79

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Re: Managing the military
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2014, 08:02:58 am »

Managing the military equipment can be a tricky business. Having gotten fully used to it now I feel confident that when I set it up it will happen the way I want it to. The last 3 forts ive started recently have had 0 issues but probably the 10 before it I was still learning.

1) The pickup equipment is a task a dwarf assigns itself and completes(hopefully) when they actually go and pickup equipment. I have seen more than one mention of dwarves  dropping their equipment when set to inactive (possible bug) but I have never seen this myself. It can also take a very long time for a dwarf to complete "pickup equipment" depending (presumably) upon the equipment that the dwarf is set to use.

My best guess for why your dwarves are not fully utilising the metal armour youve assigned to them is that you dont have the option "replace clothing" set. On the equipment screen there is a setting at the top entitled "replace clothing" activated with the "r" key. This will likely solve your issues with dwarves assigned metal armour wearing silk. The reason for this is that rmour is rather complicated, with up to 3 "layers" per slot and some equipment preventing the wearing of another. The wiki page describes the layers and combinations. Im not totally au fait with it but I know how to work around it. Also clothing counts as an armour layer, and clothing must be worn to prevent very unhappy dwarves, so when you first equip armour there is often a clash which is usually fixed by the replace clothing option.

2) The issue of dwarves not picking up your "discarded" weapons and armour could be due to the orders ( "o" key). You can tell dwarves to ignore stuff outside the fort, as well as various other options. Again im not fully au fait with everything there I just sort of know how to work around it. If the stuff is "claimed", there is a path to it and you have a stockpile dwarves should be grabbing it. Orders would be my best geuss why they are not. Have a play with that screen and try and make sense of it.

3) I use danger rooms, it took me a few forts to get these right. They are described reasonably well on the wiki, I use it to get mine set up. basically what you want it a 1x4 tunnel, an armour stand or weapon rack at the end, a door blocking it off, a 1 tile gap followed by another door. You lock the door next to the weapon rack. If you then make the door internal ( "q" over the door youll see) and create a barracks, the barracks area extends past the locked door (if its set to internal) to the "gap". Then you set up a trap, "b" key then "T" for traps and then select upright spear (I think i forget which option but again youll see in the menu). You want to make sure you have made "wooden training spears" at your carpenters workshop. Put 10 in the trap. Dont use upright spikes as theyll do too much damage. Once you have your trap and barracks link a lever to the upright spear trap.

Now arrange for your squad to train at the barracks, once all dwarves have equipped and filed into the "gap", lock the outside door so children pets and so on dont accidentally walk into the danger room area whilst training is in progress. Then set the linked lever to be pulled and repeat the job (hit r on the job list).

Now what you should see is massive gains in shield user (if shields equipped) very quickly. Some people consider it an exploit. I love X Men and I feel that theres nothing wrong with the concept of a danger room but probably the gains are too quick.

4) Marksdwarves are a different kettle of fish. I dont tend to have problems with them but some people report difficulties. The direction of fire is important with archery ranges. Make sure this is set to a direction that makes sense, ie if your archery rangers are against a wall running in a line east to west, they should be firing from the south to the north, not vice versa and not east to west either.

They require bolts being assigned to them as well as crossbows, and the bolts can be assigned to (T)raining and (C)ombat seperately. I usually have all my civillians equipped with crossbows and leave their squads on inactive. they train occasionally around other jobs they do. I think if you wanted mroe rapid gains you would need to set them to active.

C being lit up means they will use that ammunition for combat, T for training. To shoot, they will need C lit up. Be aware that a marksdwarf that runs out of ammo will attempt to charge and melee with his crossbow. I keep marks dwarves on the walls of my fort behind fortifications. This usually prevents them from engaging in close combat when they run out of ammo.

5) Im not 100 percent certain but I dont think you can set up patrol routes within the vanilla game. DF Hack adds such functionality I believe. Thats a whole nother book of learning to assimilate. Id say dont worry too much about patrols for now, I dont do it at all in my forts, yet.

6) Like the marksdwarves, I think dwarves basically wont retreat once engaged. Id suggest to keep males only in melee squads, to prevent undesireable infant mortality during engagements. I keep all my forts dwarven ladies in Xbow squads and mostly keep them out of melee, as mentioned supporting my melee squads with missile support from the walls.

7) No formations as yet, im looking forward to the day when we will get formations. im not aware of any DF hackery that "does" formations.

8) armour and weapons dont currently receive damage like clothing (damaged clothing has x, X, xx or XX surrounding its name). If you have any weapons or armour that have x's its likely because theyve been stored in a refuse pile someway somehow. All items will slowly rot away in a refuse pile. Damaged clothing is trash, it can be sold to caravans, atomsmashed or dumped in lava. new clothing is the order of the day. Armour and weapons have an infinitely long useful life (currently).

9) The fact that youve found silver gold and platinum could be all the metals that are on your site. I dont think there is a set Z level for deep metals, the available Z levels vary depending on the site.
DF Hack has a prospect all option that tells you pretty accurately whats on an embark site from the embark screen (before youve actually begun building a fort), also will tell you once you have embarked and started building. Also has an option to "reveal" all squares, so you can easily see what and where the metal is contained in your site.

10) Siege engines are currently a waste of time, dont bother with them.

DF Hack is a command line (text based) companion program to DF. you have to alt tab to it during game to use its functions. if you get the right lazy newb pack itll have df hack built in. Im by no means an expert or qualified to help beyond what ive suggested. I found it very daunting at first but by playing with it I got used to it and learned how to use it to ridiculously good effect to the point where I now wouldnt want to play without it. google df hack, browse to the github link and youll find a list of available DF Hack commands. I think this is usually contained within a DF hack containing LNP.

Remember, dwarf fortress is free, currently under active development and has been so for plenty of years so far and Toady plans to continue in this vein for possibly up to another 20 years or until hes satisfied with the game as finished, whichever comes first, donations pending.

So there are bugs, incomplete features and some design aspects that are crying out for an overhaul. DF hack helps to work around some of the bugs and design flaws  but no other game can touch dwarf fortress. ie DF hack and Dwarf fortress are worth the trouble. But you probably know that already...

hope that helps and good luck.
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MerkerBenson

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Re: Managing the military
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2014, 03:36:50 pm »

Thanks everyone for the info!
@sirdvae79 Wow, thanks for taking the time to give me this golden advice! I'll get right on it. I've already checked and seems I only have copper ore on the map(in contrast in my first embark I was SWIMMING in hematite, oh well). At least I can test everything out before I try another embark, maybe even find out what's in those "hidden" spots at the very bottom near the magma sea :)

As for DF being in development I'm in love with such games. Shows they have potential. I'm also a Shores of Hazeron regular and a tester for the indie game Planet Explorers, so DF has expected features :D

I'm using LNP atm, think I should move to Masterwork DF?

Cheers
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 03:48:14 pm by MerkerBenson »
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sirdave79

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Re: Managing the military
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2014, 05:51:49 pm »

Oh I should probably add, if you "reveal" your map, "unreveal" in dfhack once your done with some digging assignments or whatever, ive saved a game in the past and then been unable to "unreveal" the map, sort of spoiling it for me.
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Sutremaine

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Re: Managing the military
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2014, 06:19:43 pm »

2) Most of the caravans get butchered when they arrive so the armors and weapons are all over the place.
Caravans and ambushes are both timed to pop up in approximately the middle third of the appropriate month. One thing you can do for caravans is to limit wagon entry to areas that are a short drive to safety. You do this by tinkering with the wagon access so that only a little bit of the edge is green. If you have running water dividing your map into two or more, the green bit needs to be on the landmass that the caravans appear on.

Liaisons and diplomats, however, are on their own.

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4) My marksdwarfs attack the enemy by ....bashing them with their crossbows...
Don't give them kill orders.

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5) How do I set up patrol routes? How do I set up patrol routes and keep up the training at the same time? No option for multiple orders for the same squad on the same month. Atm I've only got enough military-capable people for 1 squad.
Split the squad into two, unless your 1 squad has three or fewer dwarves.

As for patrol routes, you need to go through a couple of different screens to get them set up.

i. Use the (N)otes screen to place the points your dwarves will move between.
ii. Use the (r)outes screen (found within the Notes screen) to set the points as waypoints.
iii. Go into (m)ilitary, (s)chedule, give (o)rder, and press o until you get the 'patrol route' option up. Pressing Shift+Enter will set the whole squad to patrol that route during the selected month (copy and paste it to make it apply during other months). You can set preferred positions, which activate preferred dwarves over non-preferred ones, but I haven't found a way to edit these without deleting the order and remaking it differently. You could swap dwarves around in their squad so that they occupy different positions, but since equipment is assigned by position and not by dwarf this might result in dropped armour and weapons.

I've used them on occasion, but find move orders and carefully-placed barracks to be less hassle for putting soldiers places.

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6) Any way to make my dwarfs retreat? I tried to give them station order but my militia commander with a baby in one hand and her armor 50km away still charged head on at the army of goblins, tossed the baby at them and the tossed herself at them since she also had no weapon.
Deactivating a dwarf will switch them to civilian behaviour, with all that implies. Burrow orders will get them heading for the burrow once they've stopped panicking, but that might never happen if the dwarf is slow, constantly visible to the enemy, or if the entrance has enemies hanging around it. Don't try this on dwarves with the Mining, Woodcutting, or Hunting labour equipped, as they'll drop all their equipment to make way for the pick, axe, or crossbow / leather armour that their job demands.

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7) Any way to keep my squads in formation?
Not directly. They charge as soon as they spot an enemy, so you have to control the point at which they spot the enemy.

Quote
9) Off-topic but it's frustrating now: I can't seem to find freaking metal on the map, even with a proper map choice (no aquifer, shallow metals, deep metals, flux stone-first 10 z levels FULL of chalk flux stone, gems, gold, silver and platinum). Any point in continuing this? Is there a z level for the deep metals?
Not only are gold, silver, and platinum metals, anything that isn't a layer stone or a gem is also a metal according to the site finder.
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I am trying to make chickens lay bees as eggs. So far it only produces a single "Tame Small Creature" when a hen lays bees.
Honestly at the time, I didn't see what could go wrong with crowding 80 military Dwarves into a small room with a necromancer for the purpose of making bacon.

MerkerBenson

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Re: Managing the military
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2014, 06:41:05 pm »

Thanks, everyone, now my squad actually goes to find the equipment, though never all of it at once though (that's dwarfs for you I guess :D ). And they actually train now. Since a minotaur just arrived guess I'll see how long they'll last.

Thanks for the info on patrol routes. They do seem to be quite a hassle, I might try the defense tower thing suggested in the wiki, if my fortress survives, that is :D.
Also, for some reason the new militia commander seems to have a more efficient sparring routine, my soldiers are actually learning.
The tips from the LPer Arumba about busy dwarfs never getting attached to one another worked as well, I've yet to have a single tantrum in this fortress despite the massive amounts of casualties(must be about 50 dwarfs since the start, I've already filled a mausoleum with occupied coffins)

Any tips on how to handle a minotaur? I got dozens of traps at the gates, bridges and a wall...

Cheers

« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 06:58:04 pm by MerkerBenson »
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